| Author |
Comment
|
Kira Scurro
Perch Pro
(9/16/01 11:51:44 pm)
|
Re: An Afghani-American
perspective
so, onnie, let me get this straight. when the us rolls into afghanistan
we'll actually be helping
it's citizens. delivering them in some small way from their empoverishment
and famine. ok...
and we hope to make terrorism so expensive that some of the men
who have the most money in the world (since we continually pay them
for their oil) will be unable to afford it. uh huh...
and an enemy who has turned out to be one of the most invisible
enemies ever encountered in us history is going to be smacked down
each time they arise. sure...
and because we didn't kill the japanese in those internment camps,
that makes us a much better captor than those who did kill their
prisoners. yep, but we're still moving forward...
damned straight i don't have to like the fact that we may be in
the process of starting the next world war. and as far as i'm concerned,
despite what the eunuch bush says, it is not yet a fact of life.
i can't propose anything at this point, because i don't know what
to do either. but because i don't know what to do does not mean
that the only thing to do is go to war. i would suggest we go in
with ground troops as delicately as we possibly can and extricate
the bastard. but even that could topple us into the oblivion. whatever
is done is gonna hurt everyone, and even if we find him we're still
gonna be hurting. how can anyone believe that finding bin laden
is gonna stop terrorism. it's a pipe dream!
and let's hope we'll all still be around to have any consciences
that hurt.
there are a million rationalizations for war. it'd be nice if we
could find as many rationalizations for peace.
~BELIEVE~
|
Suzan13
Perch Pro
(9/17/01 12:25:26 am)
|
Re: An Afghani-American
perspective
Thanks for bringing that letter over, Petshark.
It was disturbingly informative. I had no idea Afghanistan was that
dehumaized.
Suzan
|
Lady Deirdre
Perch Pro
(9/17/01 4:50:09 am)
|
Re: An Afghani-American
perspective
Interesting read Petshark.
I found some comments in Kira's post that I'd like to expand on:
Quote:
when the us rolls into afghanistan we'll actually be helping it's
citizens. delivering them in some small way from their empoverishment
and famine. ok...
I believe it was Onnie who said earlier that
the US, after going into (trying to avoid the word 'invading' here)
a country to fight, often stay with humanitarian aid. Please keep
in mind two things:
1) there were aid workers in Afghanistan, but all but very few have
been evacuated now due to the threat of an attack. I can think of
hundreds of humanitarian organisations who give aid even *without*
first destroying the country with bombs and soldiers.
2) the US have supplied relief in many countries already AND STAYED.
At the moment, US soldiers are camped in Kuwait, Saudi-Arabia and
many other countries where they didn't wait to be asked to help
and are now late to leave. No matter what the US army has to offer,
it looks patronising and meddlesome to walk around in a country
in armygear and brandishing guns, saying it is for their own good.
What's the trouble in donning civilian clothes just to please the
population? Unless you want the world to *know* you're there. I
saw footage only days ago of the monarch of Saudi-Arabia, standing
on an open vehicle waving at his subjects, with a US highranking
officer standing next to him on the car talking to him. That must
tell his subjects that even their king (is it? Sorry if I get titles
mixed up, don't know what kind of monarchy S-Ar is) has to listen
to this GI. I have heard comments from Middle-easterns who were
disgruntled by the US interference, as they called it. A sentiment
to remember.
In Germany, granted, a lot of relief was given by the US army stationed
in West-Germany. But they stayed until long after the country was
rebuilt, as they said to protect Europe against Russia. Good intentions
don't mean you can walk all over those you're trying to help.
Quote:
and we hope to make terrorism so expensive that some of the men
who have the most money in the world (since we continually pay
them for their oil) will be unable to afford it.
Our and your oil comes not from Afghanistan
or Pakistan. It comes from for instance Kuwait and S-Ar, ruled by
the above-mentioned monarch who is considered by terrorists to be
a puppet for the US, and who may be filthily rich but isn't using
this money to invest in possibilities for his country to still make
money after the oil runs out, as it will in approx. 40 years. But
even so: I have heard reports that Bin Laden isn't half as rich
as most people think, and this attack didn't exactly cost fortunes.
Flying lessons, plane tickets, etc aren't by far as expensive as
a truckload of weapons and bombs. Money is not where the issue lies:
these are poor countries and often poor and disillusioned people.
They will find a way.
Please don't believe Bin Laden has done anything to relieve poverty
in Afghanistan with his money either. He also worked and lived in
Sudan, as a building contractor, but the focus of his actions is
and has been fighting. He prefers to stay in countries where the
regimes are too poor or too indifferent to throw him out or control
him.
The situation in Afghanistan is truly inhuman, I doubt if most of
you can even imagine what it is like to live without anything to
be expected from the government. We take police, plumbing, medical
care and roads for granted, their government simply has no power
to do anything. We cannot blame that government for allowing Bin
Laden to stay: the resources to drive him out are just not there.
Consider that the Taliban is not the government, but they do rule
the country. This is not something we have ever seen in our lifetimes
in the West.
I don't know what we should do, but just waltzing over the Middle-East
all over again and erradicating terrorists, even if we avoid hurting
innocents, is not it, if you don't address the underlying issues.
Part of the problem is that the Arab world feels ignored and oppressed
by the West, with America up front. And I'm not talking about terrorists,
but about normal people in the street. That is a sentiment we should
*together* strive to cure. Not by telling them they're only imagining
it and it's really for their own good, but by truly listening to
their grievances and trying to find common ground.
Communiaction: shut up and kiss me
|
AZLady
Frequently Perched
(9/17/01 5:09:58 am)
|
Kira
I posted earlier in this thread that it is sometimes necessary to
commit atrocities in order to prevent greater atrocities. We now
know that US fighter planes were scrambled to intercept and shoot
down the civilian plane headed toward the WTC, but were unable to
reach them in time. Shooting down unarmed planes, loaded with innocent
civilians, would have been an atrocity. Would you have done it?
|
AZLady
Frequently Perched
(9/17/01 5:40:20 am)
|
One last thing
I believe with every fiber of my being that America has done more
FOR civilization than any other country in history, and less TO
it. No one, not you, Kira, not any editorialist who whines about
how awful our foreigh policy has been (and I do not deny that in
many ways it has been), will ever make me ashamed to be an American.
|
Lady Deirdre
Perch Pro
(9/17/01 6:22:06 am)
|
Could not
let this one go by
Quote:
I believe with every fiber of my being that America has done more
FOR civilization than any other country in history
America, sweety, has not been around long
enough to warrant such claims. You wouldn't believe the things Egypt
did for civilisation, modern medicine, astronomy, architecture,
etc. The Romans invented plumbing, highrises, aquaducts, built roads
that are still used. I could go on and on without even mentioning
*one* American.
If you mean by civilisation humanitarian aid, you might be interested
to know that the US spends (compared to the Western world) one of
the lowest percentages of its GNP on development aid and is even
blatantly late in putting cash in the UN funds that are used for
relief and development. I believe they were several *billions* behind
last time I checked. Get your facts straight.
I'm not asking you to be ashamed of being American, just a little
less loudly proud would be nice. It's patriotistic yelling like
this that gets people's (mine) panties in a twist.
Communiaction: shut up and kiss me
|
AZLady
Frequently Perched
(9/17/01 6:27:19 am)
|
Lady Diedre
You're right, of course. In my normal mind I'm not usually like
this. I just haven't been in my normal mind since last Tuesday.
|
Lady Deirdre
Perch Pro
(9/17/01 6:41:04 am)
|
Re: Lady Deirdre
I understand, most people haven't.
But I have heard a lot of loudly patriottistic speach from Americans
this past week on tv (a rescue worker speaking of "doing this
for my country" when we thought he did it for the people buried
in the rubble) and for me, being Dutch and not at all used to nationalist
phrases, it is scary. I have never called myself "proud to
be Dutch" or said my country is "the best in the world".
Over here, comments like that (whether you made them about my country
or yours) would make people laugh and maybe point a finger at their
foreheads.
Plus, where you say you're the best, you alienate others. That is
the last thing we want to do right now.
Communiaction: shut up and kiss me
|
G E
Frequently Perched
(9/17/01 6:42:55 am)
|
Re: Could
not let this one go by
<<America, sweety, has not been around long enough to warrant
such claims. You wouldn't believe the things Egypt did for civilisation,
modern medicine, astronomy, architecture, etc. The Romans invented
plumbing, highrises, aquaducts, built roads that are still used.
I could go on and on without even mentioning *one* American.>>
AZ, I respect your opinions as much as anyone else's (excluding
a few ignorant bigots who have shown their faces around here), but
I have to agree with this. We are a young, young country - Rome
was around for a hell of a longer time than we have been, and they
still proved themselves to be infallible. This isn't to say that
one shouldn't be proud of one's country, but there is a level of
arrogance that I perceive in some Americans (I'm not naming you
specifically), that makes me worry about the future.
Just this morning, I heard someone on the radio talking about deporting
every Middle Eastern citizen residing in America and sacrificing
their civil liberties for the good of the rest of this nation. It
didn't once occur to this person what this country actually stood
for, and that he was advocating an action that diametrically opposed
everything we have fought for and believe in.
If we can't even stick up for our own citizens, then I can't fairly
say that we have been just and fair with the rest of the global
community. This kind of egoism and ignorance
endangers us as a nation and it hinders our contributions to the
rest of the world. I agree with Lady Deirdre that we haven't done
our fair share as a neighbor. It's my opinion that we need to acknowledge
our faults and mistakes without excuses, and proclaim our patriotism
by admitting that our greatest asset is our unlimited potential
and our enormous capability to fix our own glitches.
|
G E
Frequently Perched
(9/17/01 6:46:01 am)
|
Re: Could
not let this one go by
<<Plus, where you say you're the best, you alienate others.
That is the last thing we want to do right now.>>
I love this point. Thank you.
|
Lady Deirdre
Perch Pro
(9/17/01 6:52:34 am)
|
Re: Could
not let this one go by
G E, have you seen the film The Siege? It is about just what could
happen in a situation like this, with people wanting to act so badly
they forget about the big picture. It was one of the first things
I thought about when I heard what happened and that muslim terrorists
were suspected.
Communiaction: shut up and kiss me
|
AZLady
Frequently Perched
(9/17/01 7:01:16 am)
|
Lady Diedre
and GE
Believe it or not, I was a history major in college, lived in Europe
for three years, and am probably more well-read and educated than
at least 50% of the people in this country. If last weeks events
have made me have moments of extreme irrationality, I shudder to
think what's going through the minds of those here who were racist
bigots even before all this happened. I hope you have read some
of my earlier posts and realize, in spite of my patriotic (OK, maybe
idiotic) outburst of this morning, I am just as terrified about
what's going to happen, both here and around the world, as anyone,
and just as uncertain as anyone else as to the right (if there is
a right) thing to do. In some ways maybe I'm more terrified than
most, as my son is a US Marine. I pray to God that this does not
lead to war, but if it does he will be in the thick of it.
I described this situation earlier as "an elephant walking
a tightrope" with no reference intended to the Republican party.
I TRULY do not believe in the doctrine, "My country, right
or wrong" but until this immediate crisis is over we must stand
united. Both the extreme right and extreme left need to move to
the center with the rest of us. Afterward we can start trying to
figure out better ways to conduct our foreign policies in the future.
Does anyone else have this feeling of having a split personality?
I alternate between wishing we had dropped the bomb last week (totally
irrational and the WAY wrong thing to ever do) and lying awake nights
trying to come up with some brilliant plan to resolve this without
one single additional life being lost. Lack of sleep probably fueled
my absurd statement of earlier this morning. I apologize.
|
G E
Frequently Perched
(9/17/01 7:04:14 am)
|
Re: Lady Diedre
and GE
<<Believe it or not, I was a history major in college, lived
in Europe for three years, and am probably more well-read and educated
than at least 50% of the people in this country.>>
AZ, I believe it. I'm not questioning anyone's intelligence at all,
I hope you understand. I guess the point of a lot of my posts is
that I wish that other 50% would pick up a history book and read
it.
|
Lady Deirdre
Perch Pro
(9/17/01 7:27:57 am)
|
AZLady,
I also read your post in the OT drawer, about the position of women
in Arab culture. I respect your educational level (heck, most Perchettes
are more than averagely intelligent!) but you might want to be careful
with drawing conclusions. Books are written if there is a story,
something to draw people's attention, and something as dramatic
as the event you described certainly is going to be noticed and
therefore read.
The general system of values of islam and cristianity is not so
very different, as we origin from the same root. Accents, for instance
on a woman's virtue, are placed differently due to the evolution
of ideas through our diverging histories. And be aware that until
recently a "fallen woman" over here was banished as well
(think of all those women, until in my mother's generation, who
were sent away when pregnant and unmarried), forcing her to live
in shame and left to her own devices, which often meant in poverty
and denied by her family.
In islam culture a father is responsible for his daughter until
the day she marries and a woman who is no longer a virgin will not
find a husband. She will live in poverty as he is forced by tradition
to throw her out, and by killing her he saves her that fate. Not
to say that I agree or even to say it still happens, but I just
want you to realise this was not an act purely of cruelty, but perhaps
more a mercy. And to show how we in the west reacted to similar
cases, which might not have included the taking of life, but which
surely weren't that friendly either.
The point I am trying to make is that, if people find something
so alien to their experience, they tend to look on in horror and
don't look further, for explanations or context. All I'm asking
is for you to look for a why. You don't have to agree, but just
try to find some understanding for how certain practices have come
about. Then you will realise we are not so different after all.
Communiaction: shut up and kiss me
|
AZLady
Frequently Perched
(9/17/01 8:20:26 am)
|
Lady
Diedre
I was trying to point out one of the reasons why fundamentalist
Muslims fear Western society, as Caleb Carr did in his article in
the Editorials and Commentary section of the OT board.
Most of civilization has moved away from such things as female genital
mutilation. Because it is still practiced in countries in Africa,
as part of their culture, does that mean it's right?
I'm driving myself ever deeper into depression by posting to this
board. I've been impressed by the level of support for America by
posters from around the world, and I agree it is extremely important
for us to take into consideration all sides of this issue.
What really raises my frustration level is those, like Kira, who
are so busy pointing out where we have gone wrong in the past. This
is not the time for that, folks. This is a time to see if we can
somehow get through this without blowing the world to smitheerns
and making yet more mistakes that will have unintended consequences
10, 20 or 50 years from now. IF we can do that we can then, hopefully,
try to straighten out our foreign policies.
By the way, what really set me off was Kira calling Bush a "eunuch."
I didn't completely support his politics before this, but I am certainly
in no position to call him names now, and neither is anyone else.
|
Onnie
Frequently Perched
(9/17/01 8:43:49 am)
|
Re: An Afghani-American
perspective
Quote:
so, onnie, let me get this straight. when the us rolls into afghanistan
we'll actually be helping it's citizens. delivering them in some
small way from their empoverishment and famine. ok...
Kira I am not sure how much of the life in Afghan you have study
up on but I can tell you that if troops do roll in there (regardless
of where they come from) I seriously doubt public exicutions will
be happening in the stadium for games like soccer, etc. I can give
you some great links if you would like to read up on their current
life. However, what I was trying to get at is that behind fighting
lines workers for the Red Cross, plus other humanity organizations
stream in (because it is safe.) Not to mention typical MASH units,
etc. There have been humanity efforts in the country but guess where
MOST of the stuff winds up? With the Tilban and not with the people.
Quote:
and we hope to make terrorism so expensive that some of the men
who have the most money in the world (since we continually pay
them for their oil) will be unable to afford it. uh huh...
I wasn't referring to money in making terrorism expensive, not sure
why you would think that in the context of what we are refering
to. War or hunting these people down. Remember most "leaders"
like to stay alive or more importantly in power. This is goes for
terrorist leaders as well.
Quote:
and an enemy who has turned out to be one of the most invisible
enemies ever encountered in us history is going to be smacked
down each time they arise. sure...
I didn't say they would, I said that is what needs to happen. The
world needs to say "Enough!" and the world together needs
to do something about it.
Quote:
and because we didn't kill the japanese in those internment camps,
that makes us a much better captor than those who did kill their
prisoners. yep, but we're still moving forward...
Actually that it happen at all is terrible. But our govt. is not
doing it now. Considering at the National Prayer meeting Friday
there was the leader of the Muslian Faith for North America speaking,
I seriously doubt it will. In fact our govt. has strongly spoken
out about any backlash towards arab-Americans. That they are, like
the rest, are Americans. So I am not quite sure why we are focusing
on Japan and the 40's this in the discussion. I think it is pretty
obvious that lesson has been learned.
Quote:
damned straight i don't have to like the fact that we may be in
the process of starting the next world war. and as far as i'm
concerned, despite what the eunuch bush says, it is not yet a
fact of life.
I honestly I can't think of a single person who does like it. In
fact anyone who did I seriously wonder what is wrong with them.
But we need solutions. Which is really what I would love to see
people focusing on.
Quote:
i can't propose anything at this point, because i don't know what
to do either. but because i don't know what to do does not mean
that the only thing to do is go to war.
i would suggest we go in with ground troops as delicately as we
possibly can and extricate the bastard. but even that could topple
us into the oblivion. whatever is done is gonna hurt everyone,
and even if we find him we're still gonna be hurting. how can
anyone believe that finding bin laden is gonna stop terrorism.
it's a pipe dream!
Bin Laden and his group cells are a start, and the world has to
start somewhere. The world has *allowed* this or help terrorist
for so long it looks like an almost impossible task. Not to mention
it will be messy to see if any "allies" come under pressure
because they are "back-door" supporting terrorist for
their own interests in other countries.
Here are some links for reading that you guys might find interesting.
It shows that our govt. is very aware of the situation and dangers.
The reporter who spent some time with bin Laden and the former US
Ambassador have almost the excat same train of thought on the situation.
Here is a reporter:
www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/s368553.htm
Here is L. Paul Bremer, former US Ambassador for Counter-Terrorism:
www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/s368582.htm
|
AZLady
Frequently Perched
(9/17/01 9:11:32 am)
|
Onnie
Thank you for being so much more eloquent and rational than I in
responding to Kira.
|
Tricia
Perch Pro
(9/17/01 9:25:03 am)
|
Re: Lady Diedre
Lady Deirdre and GE, thank you very much for your comments, especially
about historical perspective and simplistic approaches.
As a Canadian with mostly European background, I can't tell you
how many times over the years I have heard the pronouncement: "the
U.S.A. saved Europe's butt from Hitler", whenever Europe does
something perceived to be anti-American. However, it is common knowledge
among Europeans, including my relatives, and the citizens of other
countries who came the aid of Europeans years before Americans did,
that if the British and Europeans had not held on bravely as they
did for years, Hitler would have won. It's as simple as that. If
Pearl Harbour had not happened, it's still a legitimate question
whether the U.S.A. would have bothered to get involved.
I was watching a documentary at the Toronto Film Festival this weekend,
called "Fidel", about Cuba's Mr. Castro, very amusing
and uplifting at times. Several points were made about Latin American
history - when America invaded Grenada in 1984, when America invaded
the Dominican Republic during an election, the continual financial
and military aid given to the so-called "freedom fighters"
or Contras, who fought the legitimate, revolutionary government
of Nicaragua, CIA and military backing of the truly vicious and
repressive government of El Salvador, and the piece de resistance,
the U.S. government-and-CIA-backed violent overthrow of Salvador
Allende's democratically elected government in Chile, in which thousands
of Chilean citizens lost their lives or had their lives changed
forever through brutal torture. These invasions were almost always
a response to the whining of huge U.S. Corporations, nervous about
the policies of newly nationalistic governments that threatened
to become independent of superpower policies.
This is just a small part of the world, a tiny example of how American
military might is often seen to be on "the wrong side".
The murder of innocent people in the U.S. this week by fanatical
terrorists is a crime against humanity. But I have heard over and
over the same plaintive question: "How come the third world
hates America so much?" The answers are all around.
|
G E
Frequently Perched
(9/17/01 9:46:15 am)
|
Tricia...
I only wish there were more people in this country who were willing
to see your points - or at least investigate them for their own
edification. I've been hearing so often from all around me, "How
could this happen? How dare they do this to us?" As you said,
there is absolutley no excuse for the crimes committed against us,
heinous as they are, but this is not a situation in which we were
targeted without a reason. Anti-American sentiments weren't simply
pulled from the air. It's my belief that strained foreign relations
created fuel for the fundamentalists, and not the other way around.
Just as an example of our own unawareness: nobody seems to remember
our stance in Chechnya, where we basically sat on our hands while
Muslim civilians were being slaughtered. I'm not trying to take
a side in that particular issue, but it's those kinds of foreign
circumstances that have painted a pretty bad picture of us to our
enemies - and we should be aware of that.
We need to dig in our heels, look at what we've done in the past
in orde to plan how to handle the future, and educate ourselves
about world affairs in general (as an American public), so we can
influence our leaders to take the most prudent possible approach
to these kinds of situations.
|
Onnie
Frequently Perched
(9/17/01 9:55:32 am)
|
Re: An Afghani-American
perspective
Quote:
But I have heard over and over the same plaintive question: "How
come the third world hates America so much?"
Actually I think most Americans were absoutely stunned by the worlds
support as it has been commented on so many times. I think about
70% of America is well aware the world doesn't particularly care
for them too much. Regardless of good or bad I have noticed it is
usually all the bad that loves to get rehashed and rehashed instead
of focusing on furthering the good things or moving towards more
good things. Then again the poor Germans. Anytime the word War comes
up they have to suffer, yet again, a nightmare for most them all
over.
|
|
AMERICAN RED CROSS: 1 800 HELP NOW