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Comment
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ilanyamai
Frequently Perched
(9/15/01 9:17:11 pm)
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Re: An Afghani-American perspective
I think that letter is defintely something that needs to be considered.
The media has been very slanted in its presentation. This letter
helps to balance things a bit.
According to a few reports, some of the conversations of the terrorists
were intercepted. If this happened, then they must have made other
mistakes. So, as far as finding a money trail that leads back to
bin Laden; it is said that the pilots of the planes went to flight
schools. The lessons had to be paid for in some fashion. Perhaps
Bin Laden put up the money. Any bank accounts that the terrorists
might have had, which hopefully were not discontinued before they
committed their acts, might lead back to their original supporter.
All of this commentary, of course, hinges on the assumption that
bin Laden is responsible. That has not been effectively proven yet.
I'm trying to be as fair as possible.
By the way, if my name looks unfamiliar, it's because I've only
posted here once or twice...
Yo no soy mala...es simplemente tu perspectiva! ***Nos comemos
con los ojos*** ***On the chessboard, every piece was in its place***
~~~Entre dos tierras estás y no dejas aire que respirar~~~
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babzee 
Perch Pro
(9/16/01 2:49:01 am)
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Re: An Afghani-American
perspective
*bump*
Strength and Honor
The enemy is fanaticism, extremism, intolerance, hate.
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Onnie
Frequently Perched
(9/16/01 8:28:11 am)
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Re: An Afghani-American
perspective
I just thought I would weigh in with a couple of things on Americans,
the country over there, etc.
First of all the state of Afghan and its famine problems. One thing
history has shown is that when the US rolls over those front lines
we leave a trail of food, health care, construction and money in
our wake. Case and point, airlift drops into Germany even after
it was all over. Food supplies, medical suppiles, and even the GI's
helping when they could.
I have seen many posts here that war is to harsh of an action or
that we may become what we are hunting. I don't honestly recall
this country ever becoming what they went to war against. I don't
recall slavery being introduced again. I don't recall people being
forced into one religon. I don't recall women losing their status
being reduced to second class citizens. I don't recall this country
ever thinking "Yippee Skippy let's killed children who fall
under the 'special' status!" I don't recall Americans rounding
up their own people and slaughtering them for speaking out against
the goverment. I don't recall America sending 'politically dangerous
speakers' to death work camps. I don't recall America training children
to walk out with bombs attached to themselves into areas of the
country that were against a political action.
America has had society problems like any melting pot would, but
I don't ever recall America slipping backwards. I do recall us only
moving forward. Despite America actually, hard to believe it, having
problems like any other society in the entire world.
This is not a sitation where you can stand up and say, "Bad
terrorist bad, no more cookies for you! Now go to your room and
play nicer with the kiddies tomorrow."
This is a situation be it the IRA, bin Laind's group, or any other
terrorist group that it is time for the world to take a stand in
more than one way. It is time for the world to make terrorism so
expensive people actually *consider* walking to the table to talk
and work together vs. walking into a building and blowing it up.
If one rises up we need to smack it down. If another rises smack
it down before it goes any further. After perhaps the 8th time maybe
people will start to get it. They aren't going anywhere this way
but, another way they just actually might. This is something that
has never been done on a global scale before and it is about time.
Do I like what happens in war? Hell no, I abhor it, however I also
can see when sometimes it is needed. War has always been ugly and
always will be, just like sometimes no war at all is even uglier.
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hammwhatam
Frequently Perched
(9/16/01 9:10:02 am)
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Re: An Afghani-American
perspective
Petshark's letter illuminates this complex issue. I remember seeing
a documentary on why the Russians were unsuccessful in Afghanistan.
These people are holed up in places that are very strategically
located. The terrain makes it almost impossible to penetrate their
camps. They can see any threat coming and are always ready to thwart
any attempted attack. They are ever vigil. So, the letter illustrates
how futile bombing this oppressed country would be. Ground troops
would have to be sent to flush out these nests and this, indeed,
would be a long and drawn out process with many American casualties.
We have got to have the belly for it if we want to go the distance.
As for the people celebrating in the streets. If you look hard at
the footage, there are only a few people blatantly gleeful. A lot
of the people are just looking at them with amusement. The one shot
of that Muslim woman rolling her tongue was pretty infuriating.
"Welcome to your life. There's no turning back."
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PaulaWright
Frequently Perched
(9/16/01 9:28:21 am)
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Re: An Afghani-American
perspective
bumping again
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Kira Scurro
Perch Pro
(9/16/01 10:08:23 am)
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Re: An Afghani-American perspective
onnie, you seem to forget we put japanese in concentration camps
in our own country during wwll. we stopped wwll in postively the
worse action against innocent civilians to date in history...except
for hitler. it's right here in america were american middle easterners
are being shot to death by our citizens in this past week. we have
definitely slipped backward at times just like any other country
who's felt threatened or harmed.
something definitely does need to be done. but i'm not so sure that
all out war is the answer. at some point in our evolution we've
got to disregard war as an answer and come up with another solution.
~BELIEVE~
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Abby
Perch Pro
(9/16/01 10:52:33 am)
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Have some
questions..
Have heard the past couple of days that Pakistan pledges cooperation
with the U.S. and its allies. Just saw they will allow us to use
their air space, etc. Have they said they will not allow us to use
the country as a gateway for our ground troops? I thought things
were looking pretty optimistic over there. Also saw we are shocked
countries such as Iran and Yemen are pledging their full support.
Reading this man's view scares me and it sounds very probable. I
was just under the naive impression that the Bush administration
was shocked at the cooperation they were receiving from the Islamic
world.
Saddam Hussein and his pledge to fight Israel and American seem
very worrisome right now. I can see conflict breaking out in Israel
and Palestine like we have never seen before. Seems like little
wars could break out everywhere that eventually will bring the whole
world into it.
My grandfather who worked for Lockhead Martin and had top security
clearance and saw and heard things we can only imagine always said
WWIII would break out in the Middle East. I hope to God he's wrong.
Edited by: Abby at: 9/16/01 10:54:47 am
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AZLady
Frequently Perched
(9/16/01 10:54:03 am)
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Kira
Once again you fail to see my point. But then, I fail to see yours.
) Wouldn't life be boring if we all agreed on everything all the
time?
What is important is that we, as a democratic society, have the
right to our points, as long as we do not attempt to force them
upon others. I hope you will agree with me on one thing: we will
both, in our own ways, defend that right if we are called upon to
do so. My son and others like him around the world may be called
upon to do that. I hope you will support them as far as your beliefs
allow.
The backlash that is happening in America against those who are
undoubtedly innocent is tragic. Unfortunately, we have our share
of bullies and bigots just like the rest of the world. The difference
is that most of people in a democratic society (I hope I am not
being too optimistic here) abhor and will stand up to these bullies
and bigots.
In Tucson Arizona earlier this week, there was a joint prayer service
held. Not between Baptists and Catholics, but between Jews and Muslims.
A banner placed on the wall showed the Star of David and the Crescent
and Star linked by two clasped hands.
Many atrocities were committed in World War II - unfortunately it
is sometimes necessary to commit atrocities in order to prevent
them. We have refrained from doing that, so far, with the idealized
belief that maybe turning the other cheek may eventually work against
terrorism. We saw the results of that belief on Tuesday.
What's important is that once we won World War II, we turned away
from these atrocities and as Onnie said, continued to move forward.
When we win this war, or whatever you want to call it, we will do
so again. Maybe, in time, that will bring about the evolution you
talk about.
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Kira Scurro
Perch Pro
(9/16/01 11:37:18 am)
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az
i didn't realize there was a point of your's on this thread i was
addressing. maybe you meant your comment to go on the other thread?
and i'm also not real clear on where we are at odds. is it that
you feel we should immediately go to war, and i don't? if not that,
then i'm puzzled. cause i think that we should support what ever
american action that is taken...short of bombing innocent civilians.
i do not think we should declare war. on whom would we declare it?
ground troops should go in and find bin laden...yes. anything more
than that is too much, i think.
but i must disagree about committing atrocities to prevent them.
i truly must say it's better to die than to perpetuate death. those
people who died tuesday are the victims of a war that we've been
waging for quite awhile. we have never turned our cheek against
terrorism. america has been working covertly against it for many
years. we've just been losing the battle. because it's suddenly
become a worldwide incident doesn't mean whatever we do now will
allow us to win it. it's an insidious virus that, as of right now,
we don't seem to have the ability to beat. even finding bin laden
will not solve the problem. he will be prosecuted or killed, but
the terrorists will still be out there.
i'm just now listening to bush say "we will rid the world of
the evildoers". how idealistic is that? how ridiculous is that?
the evildoers will always be there. this is all about reaching a
compromise that allows the middle easterners to live equitably with
the rest of the world. can it be done? we don't know. but that's
what our ultimate goal should be.
this is a sentence that i just happened to come across last nite
in a novel i'm reading right now. synchronicity...
"but if you kill even in a cause that is just...are you any
better than your oppressors?"
~BELIEVE~
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Anita2851 
Perch Pro
(9/16/01 11:41:58 am)
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Re: An Afghani-American
perspective
Thanks for bringing that over Petshark 
.
That's a very interesting and informative. I understand the importance
of having a good perspective on who is behind this unforgivable
atrocity before making any rash actions. Innocent people do not
deserve to die and i firmly believe that even if it takes a while;
President Bush will be very patient and circumspect in his revenge
and trying to curb/end ALL terrorism...to quote him, he will
"smoke them out of their holes" .
I know that President Bush said we were at war (i use the term 'we'
in the broadest sense to include all of the allied nations and other,
Eastern continents giving their full support/back-up to the USA).
And the term war is open to interpretation. I really don't think
there will be a 'knee-jerk' reaction to this. I think there has
been enough suffering. I agree with Ivy Raine and i paraphrase that
'troops must be sent in as covertly
as possible to attack
the source
of the problem' 
.
'Nita 
"nothing you really want is ever easy" RUSSELL CROWE
"Will your seven worlds collide, whenever i'm by your side?.....dust
from a distant sun, will shower over everyone" Neil Finn - Crowded
House
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Ivy Raine 
Perch Pro
(9/16/01 12:00:31 pm)
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Re: An Afghani-American
perspective
Thanks 'Nita
Kira, I have to say your thoughtful post have given me some food
for thought. Anything that provokes thought and level headed thinking
is a good thing.
I have been saying from the very beginning of this tragedy that
now, more than ever, we need to show some restraint. What seperates
"us" from the terrorists is a fine line that we are currently
treading. By showing restraint and using ground troops to limit
as much as possible the innocent casualties we will show that we
are not stooping to the level that the terrorists did. Their sole
purpose was to kill innocent civilians with the hope that it would
create an all-out war that pitted Islam against the 'infidel'. By
using restraint and ground troops instead of simply bombing the
place we will show them that we will not allow ourselves to be drawn
into such a war, IMHO. It is reassuring to me that our leaders are
actively pursuing the use of ground troops instead of bombs. Only
time will tell what will actually happen, but I have faith that
cooler heads will prevail and we will use logic rather than emotion.
I have a great amount of respect for you Kira - and know that your
words have not fallen on deaf ears. Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called the children of God.
The
flag still stands!
Charismatic
Crowe
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AZLady
Frequently Perched
(9/16/01 12:03:05 pm)
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Kira
I think we've probably crossed threads at some point. I still don't
agree with your viewpoints, but I respect your right to have them.
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Kira Scurro
Perch Pro
(9/16/01 12:15:59 pm)
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Re: Kira
thank you, ivy. the blessed verses really well me up...now and during
the national prayer service friday. would that we all knew how really
blessed we are.
~BELIEVE~
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akaNikki
Perch Pro
(9/16/01 12:31:21 pm)
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Re: An Afghani-American
perspective
Ilanyamai,
You and others have made the point that we should follow the money
trail - did anyone see the report yesterday that they suspect Lin
Badan made millions by short-selling stock just before the WTC disaster?
If that is so, I would think the US and others could trace those
funds easily, making sure none of it got back to him.
Talk about greedy! I guess he thought it would be adding insult
to injury to take the money too, but from what I've heard, that
may have been a major mistake on his part. It will give the US incontroversial
proof of his involvement.
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afctoo
Registered User
(9/16/01 12:43:02 pm)
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Re: An Afghani-American
perspective
Petshark, thanks for posting this. I am so glad to see that all
kinds of points of view are making their way around the media. And
Ivy Raine, I agree completely with your points, couldn't have said
them better myself. I have to have some faith that decision-makers
from both the U.S. and our allies will come to a reasoned choice
that takes into account past experiences.
Glad to be back home -- and able to do such normal things as post
to the Perch again!
afc
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Onnie
Frequently Perched
(9/16/01 3:22:41 pm)
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Re: An Afghani-American
perspective
Kira,
No I haven't forgotten we put Japanesse into camps. I actually know
my history quite well from an American view point, a Aussie/NZ view
point, and a German view point. (Not to mention a military one from
my hubbys famaily, a couple of which who are in the Secret service
and one a Navy Seal.)
However, we didn't kill them in those camps did we? We haven't pulled
a Stalin have we? We haven't done it again have we? This is what
I mean by progression. We can toss up the old all we want but we
are talking about now and what is happening now. And right now there
are Muslims down there as fire fighters just like there are jewish
ones, catholic ones, etc. No one is sitting in a camp and any whacko
who is trying to hurt Arab Americans is being proscuted by the full
extent of the law.
Another way would be wonderful in a perfect world. However, the
world isn't perfect. There are people who do not want to listen.
Who do not want to come to the table and talk, who do not care how
much you or anyone else wants to look for another route. And they
will use violence against any target while they live.
What other way do you propose
to deal with people who will die
to hurt you? Do I wish it [war] could be averted? Yes. Do I think
it can be? No. When someone will commit suicide to kill others you
are dealing with an indoctrine on two levels (well okay actually
more):
1) They can do it due to their leaders
2) They have been indoctrinated to think beliefs make it okay
Now Muslims the world over will tell you killing innocents is NOT
okay. And being who we are we are not about to try and stamp out
a faith due to a few over the edge. Which brings us back to #1.
So tell me what other way do you think this can be handle? Take
their money supply? Fine, then the people of Afghan hurt even more
because there is no money to throw around even a little bit.
Take their fuel? Okay now Afgan has no lights, no cars, etc. who
do you think will feel the most of this? People of Afghan.
Place embargos on them? Close the boarders permantely? Again and
again the people will still feel the brunt. No matter which way
you want to look at it people are going to hurt. If we do nothing
people will STILL hurt.
I don't think anyone here is asking you to like it, but it is a
fact of life. If there is no action and we take a slow method people
will hurt for years and years. If there is fast action towards this
group people will hurt quickly, but then it is time to move on and
rebuild. There is no doubt, however, that I am sure our conscience
will still hurt for years.
Edited by: Onnie at: 9/16/01 3:28:37 pm
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Shannon Fla
Frequently Perched
(9/16/01 3:41:33 pm)
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Re: An Afghani-American
perspective
As for those in the US who are now being tormented and persecuted,
how can we help?
Someone in another group suggested, if you have friends who are
being targeted, travel with them. Meaning, if they need to go to
the grocery store, go with them. It does seem like a good idea that
if we can visibly support them whenever possible, and there are
enough of us, maybe the people targeting them will feel outnumbered
and back down.
Also, for any damage that is done, be it defacing of their homes
or places of worship, we could offer to help put things right again.
Provide paint, labor, whatever is needed.
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AZLady
Frequently Perched
(9/16/01 3:47:49 pm)
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Shannon
Excellent ideas. As far as I know we have no Arabs/Muslims in our
community. If we did, I would try to organize some type of round-the-clock
security for any mosques - 2 or 3 volunteers armed with cell phones
could probably deter any vandals or arsonists.
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sassym
Perch Pro
(9/16/01 5:03:26 pm)
Community Supporter
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Re: An Afghani-American
perspective
Petshark,
Thanks for bringing this post over. ..this post presents a lot of
information for thought. This is informaton I was unaware of and
information thats needs should be shared.... and
Ivy Raine..thanks for your flag photo... I borrowed my personal
flag photo from you just now and I am very grateful to you for having
it on board... again
thanks...
m
To cheat oneself out of love is the most
terrible deception,
it is an eternal loss for which there is no reparation neither
in time or eternity."
By Kierkegaard. I think
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babzee
Perch Pro
(9/16/01 10:13:59 pm)
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Re: An Afghani-American
perspective
From www.islam101.com/
Quote:
An American Muslim's Prayer
on the recent Tragedy in the USA
Sept. 11, 2001
I seek refuge in Allah from the rejected Satan.
In the name of Allah, the Most Merciful, the Most Kind.
All praises are due to God, the Almighty, the Creator of the Universes,
the Merciful, the Kind, the Beneficent, the Compassionate.
O Lord, the Almighty! Have mercy on the souls of the people who
have died in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, overlook their sins
and enter them into gardens of paradise.
O Creator of all creation! Bless those still waiting to be rescued
with patience and endurance until they are found.
O God, the Most High! bless those officers and volunteers with
energies who are doing their best to rescue people entrapped.
O Lord, the Exalted! give speedy recovery physically and spiritually
to those who are injured in this tragedy.
O Lord of the universes! give comfort to the relatives and loved
ones of the victims.
O God, the Merciful, we are in need of Your mercy, while You have
no need to punish us. Have mercy and compassion on us.
O God, the Beneficent! our world today is in need of peace and
comfort. We beseech You to give peace and comfort to all the descendants
of Adam.
O God! we pray that the followers of Abraham, Isaac, Moses, Jesus
and Muhammad truly follow the teachings of the Holy Scriptures
and tread the footsteps of these noble prophets.
O God! Satan has been whispering rancor and anger in our hearts
against each other. Muslims against Jews, Jews against Palestinians
and Muslims, Arabs against non-Arabs, non-Arabs against Arabs,
Christians against Muslims, Muslims against Christians, blacks
against whites, whites against blacks, and it goes on and on.
O Lord, the Almighty, we implore You to contain Satan and remove
the rancor and anger we have in our hearts against others. Help
us live in peace and love with each other.
O God! the evil actions of a few misguided people have caused
great mischief and tragedy on earth. O Lord, the Creator, guide
these terrorists to the straight path and stop their hands, so
that they too are saved from the chastisement of the Hellfire.
O Lord the Most High! American Muslims are in a state of sorrow
and grief. However, our pain and anxiety has been, once again,
exacerbated by the rancor and anger of some of our neighbors against
us. O God, the Merciful! Help us generate a relationship of peace
and love with our neighbors. Protect us and our children from
the misdeeds of each other.
O Lord, the Creator! Guide our government to lead us the straight
and just way, help them carry out their duties correctly. O God,
the Perfect! help our nation come out of this turmoil with dignity
and make us even a better nation than what we already are today.
And whatever good we have among us is not due to our works, but
because of Your mercy and blessings. So Continue Your blessings
on us and make us forever grateful to You. Ameen.
Strength and Honor
The enemy is fanaticism, extremism, intolerance, hate.
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