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petshark
Board Monitor
(9/12/01 10:48:52 am)
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The "terrorist problem"
Have been thinking about this pretty continuously for the last day
or so, forgive me if I preach, but it is something I have to get
off my chest. I tend to retreat to analytic thought in times of
confusion and shock.
"Faceless cowards", "madmen" "evil, despicable
acts." Yes, well it is well and good for people to have the
bad guys pointed out, but even madmen are not faceless. Somewhere
in the world they call home and are sheltered. I don't believe there
is any way to purge the world of madmen but there is a way to limit
their freedoms.
If you have a rat problem, what is the first thing you do? Track
them down and shoot them? An exterminator would say not. You have
to cut off the food supply. How do you cut off a terrorist's food
supply? The old way has been to bomb countries that harbor them.
Or set up an embargo and starve the people who live there. But that
only creates more angry people, more support for the madmen.
The ultimate irony is that the only way to control terrorism is
to solve the world's larger problems: hunger, poverty, political
abuse. These are the things that "feed" terrorists. The
people who harbor them are so abused that they often have little
choice in the matter. They might live under death threats from terrorist
organizations in their regions, or worse, they are so angry that
they are willing to protect these bastards. It would take years
to "buy" the loyalties of these people. It would take
generations to win back their trust in humanity. But in the long
run it is the only solution. Give them back enough power and security
so that they neither fear nor hate us. Give people a reasonable
opportunity to follow their consciences and they will not shelter
the rogues among us.
I am so afraid that our government will do things now that will
set this process back even further. How many more enemies will we
make in the weeks to come? How many more villages who know we would
as soon bomb them as not? How many more hiding places will we create?
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xxoo
Frequently Perched
(9/12/01 11:08:12 am)
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{{{petshark}}}
)-:
~B~
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G E
Frequently Perched
(9/12/01 11:17:11 am) |
Re: The "terrorist
problem"
Petshark, I think that's old-fashioned idealism - and I like it.
People tend to want violence and justify it as a necessary evil.
Unfortunately, it just seems to take too much effort to set the
highest, the best standards and try to attain them for the good
of all. It is probably just human nature for all of us to be egoists
- self-preservation comes first and it is often seen as too big
of a sacrifice or risk to be 100% altruistic. I just don't know
if we are built for executing the agenda you outlined.
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Chili 
Perch Pro
(9/12/01 11:32:37 am)
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Petshark,
well said...
If only elected government officials could afford to think like
that, the world would be a safer place to live. Unfortunately, it's
not that simple, and the "M" word gets in the way, every
time: MONEY.
Them that has, gets. And will fight to keep it.
As long as that personal philosophy is also embraced by politicians
keen to protect their seats in office, we will continue to react
in exactly the same fashion. Doesn't matter how idealistic and sincere
a person is when they run for public office; once they get there,
they see that it's impossible to uphold those beliefs and still
function with any success. Rep. Warren Rudman of NH, one of the
greatest thinkers and fiercest hearts to sit in the senate, retired
early for that very reason. As long as we are a capitalist country,
money and power, instead of peace and international harmony, will
be the goals.
I hope I don't sound too cynical. I'm not, just looking at it practically
and without emotion, if possible.
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manny
Frequently Perched
(9/12/01 11:35:33 am)
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Re: The "terrorist
problem"
Yeah Pet - I totally agree!! And if the definition of idealism involves
seeing the larger picture, rooting out a problem's source and working
towards long-term solutions rather than lashing out in blind anger
and prejudice, then I guess I'm still an idealist under my cynicism!
manny
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babzee 
Perch Pro
(9/12/01 11:37:22 am)
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Re: Petshark,
well said...
I'm going to repeat this quote I used yesterday, both because it's
fitting and because it stuns me, coming from a victorious General,
and that it was made so long ago and was so ignored.
Quote:
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired
signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and
are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.
This world in arms is not spending
money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius
of its scientists, the hopes of its children...
This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the
cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross
of iron. -- Dwight Eisenhower.
From the Chance for Peace address delivered before the American
Society of Newspaper Editors, April 16, 1953.
Strength and Honor
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G E
Frequently Perched
(9/12/01 11:53:31 am)
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Just a quick
P.S.
<<Unfortunately, it's not that simple, and the "M"
word gets in the way, every time: MONEY.>>
Egads, I hope I didn't implicate myself as anti-capitalist. I'm
not by any means. People should have the freedom to work hard and
profit from it, but I believe it's equally important at the same
time to tap their human compassion and empathy toward others. I
believe it's possible - but maybe not probable.
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Chili
Perch Pro
(9/12/01 12:56:39 pm)
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not prepared
to live in a non-capitalist country...
...didn't mean to give that impression either, LOL - I, uh, work
for a big corporation! But every election year, flyers are sent
out to every employee with similar verbage to this: "this is
meant only as a suggestion: these are the policies that we believe
in, and we believe that this [invariably Republican] candidate can
get the job done." Gentle persuasion. Money talks. And money
walks, but rarely to where it's needed. If I had the courage of
my convictions, I'd quit my job and become something else. But corporations
pay well, don't they? And so, I remain a part of the problem. Because
I have a mortgage to pay. And so it goes.
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Jackie12
Perch Pro
(9/12/01 1:23:39 pm)
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The Terrorist
Problem
Petshark in an ideal world that would be wonderful. However, even
if we did have an ideal world there would still be people who were
unhappy with the way things were, who wanted to change things, impose
their beliefs on others and use force to do so. This problem is
as old as history, only now there are highly sophisticated methods
to carry out atrocities like the ones perpetrated yesterday. Did
anyone in their wildest nightmares ever imagine anybody - Islamic
fundamentalists or not - would do something like fly jumbo jets
into the WTC or the Pentagon? It's beyond belief - you'll never
legislate against something like yesterday's events because it is
so much outside the normal human ken.
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akaNikki
Perch Pro
(9/12/01 1:41:23 pm)
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Re: The Terrorist
Problem
Also, look at how much money is being funnelled into this particular
terroist cause - money which could be used to address some of the
problems, rather than be the means to so much destruction.
Also, Chili, you say you would be more inline with your beliefs
if you gave up your presumably well-paid job and worked for a cause
(I'm paraphrasing, as i don't have your words in front of me) -
I did give up my corporate job in 1993 and have worked in various
social services since. I have come to realize, that corporate employees
who volunteer on Board of Directors for various causes are worth
their weight in gold if they are committed to that agency's cause.
To think how much time and money and opportunity to do well that
I squandered all those past years.
Do not underestimate your impact nor your capabilities. Just get
out there and get involved. And everyone has their own philosophy,
but I have always thought that those who leverage their charitable
dollars with their volunteer efforts have a special place in heaven!
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petshark
Board Monitor
(9/12/01 1:48:28 pm)
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I agree it
is idealism
But we need to stop thinking it is impossible. I have occasionally
attended functions where people spoke on issues like global hunger
and the death penalty, both things that people frequently hate but
cannot imagine eliminating. Each time I was amazed not by the information
I heard but by the numbers of thoughtful and articulate people who
were there. If we only could recognize it, we would realize that
there are more "good people" than bad ones.
So it isn't so impossible as we think. The technology we take for
granted was once fanciful dreamstuff. Hunger was taken for granted
in the days when we were at the mercy of the elements. We know now
that we can almost always find a way around a bad winter in developed
countries. The 1999 storms in Europe would have once demolished
the cities and lead to years of hunger. Instead, Paris was not only
functioning but cleaned up
in time for the Millenium celebrations.
Perhaps our most insurmountable- looking obstacle today is greed
and apathy, especially in our government. There are only a few who
keep banging their heads against the wall of stupidity (Feingold
I include here) and most of them just come away bloody. But if they
can do it, so can others. And the wall can come down.
I was watching Trekkies,
a 1997 documentary about Star Trek fans. Oddly enough, it gave me
hope. The wild ideals demonstrated in the Star Trek shows (ever
evolving and improving itself) appeal to such a number of people.
If this desire to be in a society of tolerance and intelligence
is so widespread, what makes us think a few millionaires and dumb
political puppets can really win the day?
It doesn't even take that much effort on the individual's part.
Just being a careful voter who doesn't forgive liars (I know, we
have to start by voting for the lesser of the liars but it is something),
or being a reader who doesn't buy phony news. I know, it is hard
to know the lie from the truth at first, but it does eventually
get out. And there are those polls that the politicans swear by.
They may be rigged but someone is getting phone calls.
It is a slow process but not an impossible one. Begin at home, and
the rest will come.
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Kira Scurro
Perch Pro
(9/12/01 1:51:43 pm)
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Re: The Terrorist
Problem
actually, though chili, you've hit the nail on the head. it is capitalism
that is surely at the root of most of the moralistic problems in
the world today. of course it is also the foundation upon which
most of what is good in the world has been built. but in my mind,
this economic system was good to get us started, but is now very
bad for the spiritual well being of the society as it is today.
and let's not discount spiritual well being now that we're approaching
an era of ease and leisure for a portion of mankind. a small portion
at this point, it's true, but our technology shows us that this
ease of life is possible for all of us if we can just get started
down the right road.
but that's definitely a contradiction to capitalism as we know it,
because the free market grows on other's backs...on being better,
smarter, more rapacious than your fellow man. sometimes i think
the embodiment of the second coming must be an entity of a great
economic, spiritual and philosophical knowledge.
yet, in an eternal optimism, i believe if we can get beyond our
capitalistic ways, we will be able to provide for all as petshark
hopes. once every child born has an equal opportunity to live a
life of quality we will be a long way towards eliminating dissidents.
of course, jackie, we will always have people who are unhappy with
the status quo, even under the idealistic scenario i'm envisioning.
but we must have that. that is the only way the species has ever
moved forward...by the sheer determination of those who didn't like
things the way they were.
there are many ways to be dissident, though. and as gandhi and king
showed us, they don't all involve the taking of lives.
~BELIEVE~
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Ageangirl
Perch Pro
(9/12/01 1:57:51 pm)
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Re: The Terrorist
Problem
WOW...this is a thread I can relate to. It is blind idealism to
think that American politics are "innocent" "good
vs. evil" -- the truth is not that simple. And so, whoever
the perps are of this vicious mass-murder feel that all "Americans"
are "guilty" -- say of depriving bread from their children
due to trade embargoes, etc. Round and 'round we go. And the Mid-East
situation - always pointing to the 'other guy' saying he killed
first, he started it I'm only defending myself and my family my
land.
Meanwhile the seemingly endless human toll and misery ...
To quote Isaiah quoting God "O if only you would pay attention
to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river,
and your righteousness like the waves of the sea" ...Isaiah
48:18 "And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword
against nation, neither will they learn war anymore." Isaiah
2:4 (Can't wait for this to come true.)
To quote John Hepworth "The world is not at peace. But it will
be. Surely it will be. One day."
Thanks PetShark & everyone for your thoughts. Make every day
count 
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shaballs 
Perch Pro
(9/12/01 2:15:40 pm)
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Re: The Terrorist
Problem
I tip my hat to everyone here providing such thoughtful discourse.
I will attempt to keep the tradition.
Something I thought about yesturday, is the irony of some of the
possible outcome in terms of government spending that will probably
result from this tragic event.
Our congressmen claim that we have the 'greatest military in the
world" and yet shout about how "our nation is shaming
our military tradition by letting it dwindle through lack of funds."
Yesturday, we saw that no amount of defense spending can counter
an attack that is planned at this level of complexity and precision.
Another question that I hear repeatedly is "how could anyone
hate America so much as to die for their hatred?" We, as Ameicans,
have an incredible opportunity to see ourselves in another way.
America's way of life affects the global community, often in horribly
oppressive ways. There is so much more to this that U.S. =good/
fundamentalist fanatics=bad. What is America doing to the world
that could create this level of terrorism?
But will our leaders choose this line of thinking? Instead of possibly
looking into ways to making sure that religious tolerance and economic
equity can be achieved at a global level, they will yank funding
from education and health to fuel the military and our nation's
fears. While I certainly mean no disrespect to the anger and grief
of those who have suffered the loss of loved ones in this disaster,
I merely stop to pause and reflect at the fact that our nation will
continue to dump billions of dollars into arming ourselves against
others before we will ever consider the multiple reasons such actions
occur.
It is not as simple as good vs evil.
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petshark
Board Monitor
(9/12/01 3:06:45 pm)
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from Human
Rights Watch
Human Rights Watch Response to Attacks on the U.S.
Civilian Life Must Be Respected
(New York, September 12, 2001) -- We profoundly condemn
yesterday's cruel attacks in the United States and express our
condolences to the victims and their loved ones. This was an assault
not
merely on one nation or one people, but on principles of respect
for
civilian life cherished by all people. We urge all governments to
unite
to investigate this crime, to prevent its recurrence, and to bring
to
justice those who are responsible.
Last night, President Bush said that the United States
"will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed
these
acts and those who harbored them." Yet distinctions must be
made:
between the guilty and the innocent; between the perpetrators and
the
civilians who may surround them; between those who commit atrocities
and
those who may simply share their religious beliefs, ethnicity or
national origin. People committed to justice and law and human rights
must never descend to the level of the perpetrators of such acts.
That
is the most important distinction of all.
There are people and governments in the world who
believe that in the struggle against terrorism, ends always justify
means. But that is also the logic of terrorism. Whatever the response
to
this outrage, it must not validate that logic. Rather, it must uphold
the principles that came under attack yesterday, respecting innocent
life and international law. That is the way to deny the perpetrators
of
this crime their ultimate victory.
--
Pam Bruns
Director
Human Rights Watch/Southern California
www.hrw.org
Edited by: petshark at: 9/12/01 3:11:16 pm
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petshark
Board Monitor
(9/12/01 3:08:42 pm)
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From Amnesty
Int'l
12 September 2001
USA: Amnesty International appalled at devastating attacks against
civilians
Amnesty International is outraged at the attacks carried out in
the United States, involving the hijacking of civilian aircraft
and resulting in thousands of men, women and children being killed,
maimed or injured.
"We condemn these attacks in the strongest terms. Whether they
have been carried out by a state or an armed political group, these
attacks amount to the gravest abuses of fundamental human rights
and basic principles of humanity," Amnesty International said.
Amnesty International calls for those responsible for these attacks
to be brought to justice, in full accordance with international
human rights and humanitarian law.
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Chili
Perch Pro
(9/12/01 3:46:24 pm)
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exactly what
I meant...
Quote:
but that's definitely a contradiction to capitalism as we know
it, because the free market grows on other's backs...on being
better, smarter, more rapacious than your fellow man.
...thanks, Kira, well put. Quitting my job
would only hurt myself; I would be unable to do the things I want
if I made less money (and, uh, don't get me wrong, I'm not THAT
well-paid, LOL! One look at my car would tell you that!). On the
other hand, you are correct, akaNikki... I do give my "fair
share" (and you corporate types will know exactly what that
means) and more; a smaller salary would mean a smaller "share."
I would be unable to give anything if I made less money.
Volunteer my time... THAT would be putting my 'money' where my mouth
is.
I guess what we're all trying to say in different ways is that we
wish we could have our cake and eat it too: have an affluent country
where everyone is free and comfortable enough to do what they want
when they want, with every neighbor in every country able to live
in exactly the same way. But as long as oil companies and financial
institutions, tobacco companies and gun lobbyists, and other influential
businesses have the power to sway government policy when it suits
them or effects them, that's not going to happen. That is the flip
side of capitalism, the part that nothing can change, no matter
what each individual wishes they can do to make a difference. It's
HARD making a difference. Hard work, sacrifice... but yet... as
a goal, there can't be a nobler one, no matter what type of government
you live under.
Life
Tip # 73: Never
fight with an inanimate object.
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shaballs
Perch Pro
(9/12/01 5:50:35 pm)
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mindfullness
Thank you Petshark, for the AI and HR reports. These words of clarity
and compassion are sorely needed around here, and they are much
appreciated by me.
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IzzyLizzy
Perch Pro
(9/12/01 6:23:49 pm)
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Re: mindfullness
Thanks Petshark and all the rest of you for such a thoughtful dialogue.
I tried to express some of these same concerns in a thread yesterday
and couldn't quite get to the crux of the issue. Your eloquence
and insight astound me! I wish we heard such high quality discourse
on the news. For one thing (history teacher weighs in here)-- with
all the chatter and the lack of new news on this--could the networks
devote just a little time to a historical overview of the Mid-East,
US involvement there over the last 50 years, the development of
these suspected terrorist groups. ?? We sorely need some historical
context here.
IzzyLizzy
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petshark
Board Monitor
(9/12/01 9:03:21 pm)
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btw, Chili
I agree no one should quit their job (so long as you are free to
ignore the voting pressure...). It is like buying stock in corrupt
companies: someone is going to make money off these things so why
not you? You at least can donate some of it to good causes and be
all the more politically powerful for your income. So long as you
mean well. I would take such a job tomorrow...well, so long as I
could use their internet access regularly
Edited by: petshark 
at: 9/13/01 4:20:25 pm
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Chili
Perch Pro
(9/12/01 9:11:32 pm)
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Petshark...
LOL! I do get to do that... sometimes!
But, seriously, I console myself with the fact - and it is a fact
- that my company does not threaten the environment, exploit third
world countries, or manufacture anything hazardous to the health
of the consumer at large. And so, if I were to work for any corporation
anywhere, it would be this one. I can at least go to work with a
clear conscience in that respect...
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