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Comment
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Chili 
Perch Pro
(9/18/01 9:13:33 am)
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wow...
...I've been missing this great discussion.
What the heck do I want to say? Maybe a word about patriotism for
now, the other issues (so many!) at another time - I hope this thread
stays alive for awhile... and I hope I don't offend anyone by what
I'm about to say.
Quote:
I don't like that Capitalism is attacked or made to be the bad
guy here as well. That, along with freedom of religion and a wealth
of other freedom's is what has made our country great. I do think
we have lost alot of our religious core...our center. And when
you lose your core, you just have a hole that must be filled.
And that is filled with self centeredness and narcissism. I think
that has happened in our country- but then, that's a topic for
another thread.
Hooly, you are a dear dear friend, and I love you, and cherish your
optimism and truly sincere idealism. I know we don't agree politically,
but this statement is, really, at the very heart of our problems
in the US: we have lost sight of the goal, of the ideals mapped
out in the Declaration of Independence. However... at the risk of
appearing like a pessimist and a negativist, I want to throw a spotlight
on some things that bother me when I hear speeches about "freedom
loving people" and "those who reject democracy."
This country was built on the backs and the blood of "others"...
and I say "others" because they - Native Americans and
African slaves and their descendents - were not allowed to be citizens
- to vote - until... hell, within my lifetime. 1964. I think if
you canvassed Native Americans living on reservations today, asked
them what it's like to be an American... well, I don't think we
want to hear the answer from some of them. And this dichotomy is
what other countries, and other people struggling for what we take
for granted, see… they see it, and they judge us as hypocrites.
The founding fathers wrote some of the most moving, inspiring words
ever written in the English language:
Quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of
Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted
among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the
governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive
of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish
it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on
such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to
them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
…but they didn't mean it… they didn't mean it for everyone. They
meant it for themselves, for people who looked like them. I'm guessing
you all are aware of the battle behind the scenes to include the
rights of Negroes then living in the colonies, and how that battle
was lost. And no one thought to include the rights of the native
peoples of America, even though the fuse to that powder keg was
about to be lit in a mere decade or two. And so, whenever I read
this document, that we as Americans are so proud of (and rightly
so), and quote so freely, other people in other nations scoff. This
is what we're up against: the general view that we, as Americans,
talk a lot about lofty ideas while our feet are firmly planted in
mud.
But I'm not a negativist, I don't dwell on the past. What I always
think about is how this country, and the people living within its
borders, have changed and progressed and matured just in my lifetime.
Yes, there is still discrimination, there is still injustice in
the courts, ugly things go on all the time, perpetrated by ugly
people. But on the whole, people have evolved by leaps and bounds
when it comes to how we treat each other on a daily basis, how we
see our fellow man, how we see ourselves. And THAT's what makes
me proud to be an American. The 60's were terrible times, but we
actually came away having looked at ourselves and tried to progress.
And we have. We're not perfect, we never will be. But we're trying,
and people in other nations don't always give us credit for that,
because when we display or express this pride, it's perceived as
patriotic rhetoric from a nation of hypocrites. That's why I wish
our president would tone down this "freedom loving people"
rhetoric full of frayed cliches, and speak from his heart.
I know he's got one; words from the heart, even when fumbled or
imperfect, are much more likely to be embraced - and BELIEVED -
by the people of the world, as well as by American citizens.
And back to what Hooly said: if everyone thought like she does (as
I think we all do), we could all afford to be a little more hopeful
when we go to bed tonight. That is the goal, what the Declaration
of Independence really stands for and really means inclusive Capitalism,
if I can coin a phrase that will never be heard again (LOL!). A
nation based on the love of God, nation, neighbor, and self last.
If we keep our eye on this, using "neighbor" to include
the people of other nations who don't have what we have, then we'll
one day see that day when, truly, there's peace in the world.
Life
Tip #26: A gentleman
is a man who can play the accordion but doesn't .
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petshark 
Board Monitor
(9/18/01 12:15:48 pm)
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The Declaration of Independence is amazing
Sort of like someone was writing it in a dream state, while the
signers were free to interpret the dream. I say this because even
though it was not fully abided by, the words themselves (unless
we get down to the gender specific versus species specific uses
of the word "man") really do cover all the bases. I love
it when someone writes something that is better than themselves.
I think that this is one reason the statue of Liberty will not be
attacked (aside from it not being very populated): even the lowest
of the low recognize that they would have no friends left if they
attacked a symbol of such hope.
Edited by: petshark
at: 9/18/01 2:27:44 pm
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AZLady
Frequently Perched
(9/18/01 12:26:02 pm)
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The "terrorist problem"
Petshark, you said what I would have said had I been able to put
together the right words.
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Kira Scurro
Perch Pro
(9/18/01 12:48:47 pm)
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this is waaay, waaay off topic...
...so please forgive me from bringing it up. but it's always an
astounding fact that i think of whenever anyone mentions the declaration
of independence. and i think everyone should be aware of the synchronicities...
it has finally been revealed, just in the last few decades, that
one of the great men who drafted and signed the declaration, thomas
jefferson, had a slave mistress, sally jennings. he educated her
as a gentile woman, spent most of his life with her and they had
something like 9 children. from all accounts, he loved her dearly.
she was in fact the half sister of his wife, who died at 32, and
it's said they looked enough alike to be twins.
it is rather widely speculated that the only reason the slaves were
not emancipated while he was president is because he was afraid
sally would leave him. how ironic it is that the emancipation did
not happen for another 75 years because of this great love affair.
~BELIEVE~
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petshark
Board Monitor
(9/18/01 2:33:36 pm)
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Love affair aside
If you read Jefferson's works, it is really stunning how xenophobic
he was. Not only does he write ludicrously anti-African things (details
on why Africans are physically unattractive... lol, in light of
his personal circumstances!) but he also makes a list of which people
should not be welcomed into America due to their inability to cope
with democracy: Eastern Europeans, Irish, Greeks, and anyone who
was living in poverty under tyrannical leaders. Argues that such
people are not prepared for the responsibilities of freedom. I am
thinking of a pamphlet he wrote as a quick guide to America for
Europeans. Lol, the guy wasn't exactly a self conscious writer.
And I am a lousy citer: can't EVER remember a title when I need
it.
I keep thinking of swerveleft's definition of that handle (tends
to swerve off topic) and I wonder why I am not called swervy-shark.
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Kira Scurro
Perch Pro
(9/18/01 2:40:20 pm)
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Re: Love affair aside
weird guy....huh, pet? funny how many "swerves" in history
has changed the world for us all. 
~BELIEVE~
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hooligans
Frequently Perched
(9/18/01 2:43:55 pm)
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Chili---I
luv ya...
if we could all agree to disagree as kindly as you just did with
me- our world would be a much easier place to live in...
Honestly, maybe I am a bit naive, but I do feel the founding fathers
DID mean the Declaration of Independence for everyone, but as fallible
and imperfect human beings, they could not live up to their own
ideals... But what if there were no ideals to try to live up to,
where would we all be then? They set the standard out there, and
dared us all to TRY (keyword) ASPIRE to live up to it. And we fail
daily- but we keep trying.
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Chili
Perch Pro
(9/18/01 3:19:05 pm)
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Hooly, not naive...
...maybe idealistic, if I absolutely had to give it a name... but
like what started this thread in the first place - Petshark's "idealistic"
vision - it's what we need right now, isn't it? I'd say...!
Love you too, babe! ... in a totally non-lesbian way, of course...!
- NTTAWWT 
Life
Tip #26: A gentleman
is a man who can play the accordion but doesn't .
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Heeler
Perch Pro
(9/18/01 3:49:19 pm)
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Re: Hooly, not naive...
Maybe I'm jumping in here without completely studying this thread.
The founding fathers DID write some of the most brilliant words
and concepts. They did this DESPITE their own faults. We as a country
HAVE failed these words, miserably at times, but the words still
ring true. What we should do is pick ourselves up, dust ourselves
off, and continue to try to do justice to them. The concept that
America was founded on is not to be faulted. The humans that put
these concepts into practice are.
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hooligans
Frequently Perched
(9/18/01 4:03:36 pm)
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Heeler...
"The concept that America was founded on is not to be faulted.
The humans that put these concepts into practice are."
Thank you for saying so clearly what I could fumble around for weeks
trying to clarify...
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petshark
Board Monitor
(9/18/01 4:25:14 pm)
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right
right right
I do believe someone back then knew what he was writing.
I still find it amazing. Of course I suppose each of us does that
every day, professing standards we don't always live up to. But
maybe we get a little closer every time we say it?
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Chili
Perch Pro
(9/18/01 4:34:54 pm)
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oh yeah, they had the right idea...
...they were some of the most brilliant thinkers of their time in
an age of genius, Jefferson foremost among them. He has been an
enigma to biographers ever since. How can a man with such a mind
be so narrow-minded when it came to the rest of humanity? No one's
been able to answer this question. But there he was, the deciding
factor when those critical lines about slavery were crossed out
of the document. What some psychologists wouldn't give to get him
on a couch today...
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hooligans
Frequently Perched
(9/18/01 4:39:31 pm)
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Re: right right right
absolutely...On a *much* simpler level- I set all kinds of standards
for myself that I can't even live up to on a daily basis. I tell
myself at the beginning of the day- I WILL have patience, I will
be kind, I will be SLOW to anger...I will NOT spend more than an
hour on a Russell Crowe board, I WILL get X amount of work done,
I will NOT flip off that idjit who just cut me off....
If I can achieve only a few today, maybe I can achieve a few more
tomorrow- If I didn't even try...it would be a very sad existence
indeed.
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petshark
Board Monitor
(9/20/01 12:34:23 pm)
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Re:
Holy cr@p
A small comfort, suggests slightly better intentions
-- petshark
From PR Watch - www.prwatch.org
10. BUSH VS. THE TALIBAN
During part of Friday, Spin of the Day provided a link to a story
by Robert Scheer of the Los Angeles Times titled Bush's Faustian
Deal with the Taliban. We have discovered, however, that Scheer's
story was misleading and inaccurate. His story, written on May 22,
2001, reported that the Bush administration had given $43 million
to the Taliban as "an ally in the drug war. ... The gift ...
makes the U.S. the main sponsor of the Taliban." While it is
true that the Bush administration allocated aid to Afghanistan in
May, the aid package (which consisted in large part of surplus U.S.
wheat) was intended to prevent millions of Afghans from starving
to death. In announcing the aid package, Secretary of State Colin
Powell made a point of criticizing the Taliban, not just for failing
to cooperate with U.S. efforts to extradite Osama bin Laden, but
also for contributing to mass hunger in Afghanistan. Powell said
the U.S. aid would be administered by the United Nations and non-governmental
organizations and would bypasses the Taliban, "who have done
little to alleviate the suffering of the Afghan people, and indeed
have done much to exacerbate it." Powell's announcement was
supported even by the Feminist Majority Foundation, which of course
deplores the Taliban's discrimination against women. The actual
facts surrounding this aid package were reported at the time on
CNN. For a further critique of Scheer's misleading story, see the
critique on Spinsanity.org. We apologize for our role in circulating,
however briefly, misinformation at this difficult moment in America's
history.
Web links related to this story are available at:
www.prwatch.org/cgi/spin.cgi?date=September%202001#1000581806
Edited by: petshark
at: 9/20/01 12:36:34 pm
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silvercrowe
Perch Pro
(9/20/01 1:22:48 pm)
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Re:
The "terrorist problem"
Read this article today from the NY Times on the split in the Bush
administration on how to retaliate:
www.nytimes.com/2001/09/2...0POLI.html
Wolfowitz is the scariest man around in the administration, and
after listening to Rumsfeld at lunch today (9/20), it sounds as
if they are thinking of broadening the response to include nations
that support proliferation.
It is as if the old Cold War warriors have risen again, and are
ready to lead us into something much larger that the elimination
of terrorists. I hope and pray Colin Powell's reasoned response
is the one we follow.
The Prose
& The Passion
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Kira Scurro
Perch Pro
(9/20/01 1:29:25 pm)
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Re: The "terrorist problem"
thanks for the clarification, pet. that makes me feel a lot better.
from your lips to god's ear, murph.
...and welcome back!
~BELIEVE~
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AZLady
Frequently Perched
(9/20/01 1:39:38 pm)
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Terrorism problem
Thanks, Pet, I thought there was probably more to that story than
was first presented. We'll all have to be really careful to take
everything that comes out of the media with a grain of salt. Even
the things we agree with.
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