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Comment
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AZLady
Frequently Perched
(9/14/01 11:01:58 am)
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I think we
are missing something
and that is that Bin Ladin and others like him do not give a rat's
you-know-what about their fellow Muslims. They want to terrorize
the world back into the Stone-Age, so they can be the ones in power,
they can be the oppressors (as they allege US to be), and they can
continue to twist the Muslim religion to their own ends. Again I
pray that moderate Muslims, who are undoubtedly completely innocent
in this attack, will themselves take action to help us put an end
to this horror.
And after that we need to go after other terrorist groups, be they
in Ireland, Sri Lanka, or wherever. My grandchildren (that I don't
even have yet) will probably still be fighting this battle. But
is it a battle we must fight.
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CELLY1
Perch Pro
(9/14/01 11:36:57 am)
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Re: I think
we are missing something
This is a great thread and I'm still torn in two. I understand all
your comments on capitalism but I'm not sure if the aspect of religion
has been touched in anyone's posts. This isn't necessarily about
extremists hating us because of our capitalism. They despise us
because we are infidels, heathens to them. Godless. We do not believe
in their God and their ways. We have no morals etc. The article
by the two evangelist angers me as well. We deserve this??? This
is the land of the free! Who am I to dare and denounce for someone
for NOT believing in God and for being PRO choice? I believe in
God, my beliefs are my own - they are not mine to force upon others
and I've always felt that way. Their religious conviction is beyond
comprehension. They raise their children for the sole purpose of
hate. Their textbooks teach hate and promote it.
Ladies, please also do not forget that this Taliban regime that
harbors bin Laden is the same regime that has stripped women of
any and all rights. They are not necessarily a peace-loving, giving
society. They PREFER to be kept in the stone age - it is easier
for them to control their people. I can't believe I'm going to say
this but that country would have been better off still under the
control of Russia. Perhaps the women would have more of a life,
they would be more prosperous.
When people refer to zealots like these as madmen it's for reasons.
It's because they have extreme wealth and they're rather wreak havoc
that help build a nation and progress. It's because they project
their problems as caused by everyone else and not themselves. They
enable the violence, they let is fester and grow and they applaude
it. No God that I've ever heard of has preached and taught violence
as a means of retribution or that has said to keep women as the
lowest level of life with no rights or worth.
I'm not sure if I saw it on this board or if it was one of the many
items sent to me but there was an article that referred to Hitler...
if he wasn't stopped and succeeded at exterminating all the Jews
that he would have turned his eye to others. It's the truth.
When people are referred to as madmen it's because they don't see
clearly - they don't see out of their bounds. They believe in only
what they want and make no attempt to see other points of view.
They are selfish and that's what these attacks were. It's called
terrorism for a reason. I'm sure my opinions will not be popular
anywhere.
I'm not for the bombing of innocents but that's the difference between
Americans and zealots. We will make every effort to spare innocents,
zealots target innocents. The longer we continue to allow them to
exist the more threatened we are. It's that simple.
It's always in the name of their God which they have twisted. There
was a statement by Muhammed Ali read yesterday that said that any
true believer in Islam would never condone such actions and it's
true. Their religion is hate, pure and simple. They wish to spread
it and embrace it. We cannot. I've babbled enough.
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Kira Scurro
Perch Pro
(9/14/01 12:25:20 pm)
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a different
take...
as it seems this thread will endure with insightful and conscientious
discussion, and this unique and worthy viewpoint is on it's way
to falling off the board, and because it truly looks like we may
be going to war...i want to insert this post here.
FormerlyKnownAsJ
Registered User
(9/13/01 10:41:10 am)
Reply A Different Take
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a friend, an ex-Marine, one who has served all over the World.
He has insights and connections that give him a far different take
on this horror than any I've seen on the news, from our Government,
anywhere…
In our anger, desire for retribution and talk of the need for a
quick and decisive response, we must remember this -
Terrorist groups want to start what they consider to be a "Holy
War" against the Infidel Whore, the United States. Sadaam Hussein
has wanted this for a long time and has been unable to achieve it.
Muslim and Islamic extremists think that War against the United
States will unite the Arab Nations. Then bring about Armageddon,
which will herald death to the unrighteous and the return of "God"
to earth.
No one has talked about this anywhere. That perhaps the reason this
unfathomable nightmare occurred was to do precisely what it looks
like it is doing.
Provoke the United States into War.
A War the Terrorists WANT!
They do not care if they die. They feel it an honor. They do not
care if the World is destroyed in a Nuclear holocaust. As I've stated
before, Armageddon is, in their minds, a precursor to God on Earth.
An now, President Bush has gone to the United Nations, had the War
Powers Act invoked, got special dispensation from Congress to allow
him to make independent military tactical decisions…
Dear God - our Government's actions may be playing right into their
hands.
I pray that our Government, the United Nations, all our Special
Forces, our Intelligence Communities, the Nations who stand with
us, President Bush, all of our citizens and those who care about
us act with clarity. With insight. With understanding. With compassion.
With courage. And with justice.
But, above all, I pray that everyone takes extreme care to make
damn sure the United States is not now, nor will she ever be, an
unwitting tool manipulated by agony to fufill the designs of Madmen.
~BELIEVE~
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Lucien01SCM
Registered User
(9/14/01 9:35:23 pm)
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Re: a different
take...
I have, along with the rest of this country been watching the t.v,
reading the newspaper, and trying to talk with others to make sense
of the events of this past week. It is very confusing most of the
time. The words "anger" and "war" are being
spoken. I fear that we are already in a war. Though
I understand the need for punishment, I too fear an " war the
terrorist want". Although this is not the usual line of discussion
for this website; I am impressed with the heartfelt concern that
many people have expressed. Your thoughts have been meaningful,
and I am
thankful to be able to read your posts. They may sound "idealistic"
at times in wanting to understand the cause for the problem,but
there's othing wrong with that. I too agree that we need to see
the big picture. We need to understand a lot more about world history.
Something tells me that we will have a long time to think about
not only the actions of this past week, but of the actions that
this country will take. I pray that we act with clarity and not
rush to fulfill an unclear political goal, and do more damage.
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Wheels
Frequently Perched
(9/15/01 7:18:45 am)
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Re: a different
take...
I have not posted much to the other discussions of the horrible
events and loss of life this week. I have been too emotional and
have chosen to keep my thoughts to myself.
However, I glimpsed something on the news last night that has tormented
my sleep and now worries me more today. The media has reported (and
I am hoping that this is NOT widespread) that people here in the
U.S. have begun taking their anger out on other citizens who are
Muslim. My feeling is that striking out at people who had nothing
to do with the terror in NY and are probably just as horrified by
what happened as we are, is not only thoughtlessly cruel but also
a very big mistake! I think such actions will only cause hatred
from the victims and will, in the end, justify for them the terrorist
acts that took place on Sept. 11!
Please, please, I hope with all my heart that our country, both
its people and its leader's, THINK before they act and KNOW who
their enemy is before they strike out at them. I know that innocent
people are bound to be caught up in any retaliatory actions we take.
But I believe if we take the time to know, locate, and try to isolate
the guilty as much as we can, maybe we could keep the destruction
of innocent lives to a mininum.
Sorry. Climbing down of my soapbox now...
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watcherwatcher
Perch Pro
(9/15/01 7:26:47 am)
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Re: a different
take...
I know Arab-Americans, and Americans who are followers of Islam,
who have personally suffered from this backlash. Not only is this
non-American but it is stupid. Many American Muslims have been here
longer than those who are taunting them as foreigners.
The only Americans who are not the immigrants or the children (grandchildren,
etc.) of immigrants are those who descend from the original inhabitants.
In Denmark many Jews were saved because non-Jews proudly wore the
Star of David. Perhaps American women who are not Muslim should
don head-scarfs in solidarity with their Islamic sisters.
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hooligans
Frequently Perched
(9/15/01 7:58:15 am)
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Re: The "terrorist
problem"
I've had many thoughts regarding this thread, and reading each post
I've wanted to respond to almost every one.
Regarding terrorists...the answer won't be simple or quick. CNN
was saying Clinton's answer was to just send a missile over there
after terrorist attacks..tit for tat type of thing. But that was
only ENGAGING in a relationship with the terrorists. We don't want
to engage- we want to disengage and END this relationship. But to
do that will take a long time because this "terrorist"
is turning out to be more than just bin Laden. He's got a network
of at least 37 cells (pockets of terrorists) in different countrys
and support from other leaders, possibly Sadam Hussein to name just
one. We have to find these cells and get rid of them, only to have
the possiblity that they will immediately be replaced by the next
line of enforcements. These people NEED an enemy, WANT an enemy
of high profile and power, like the US to propagate their agenda.
They want to be an underdog, fighting a big power...and yes, I agree,
if they didn't have us, they would look for another enemy.
I also know that there is nothing we could do to "bargain"
our way out of this. They want a World War. Nothing we could offer
would be acceptable. I have no answer. I'm trying to make sense
of this myself. I'm preparing myself for a long, slow battle for
justice and eradication of this evil.
I don't like that Capitalism is attacked or made to be the bad guy
here as well. That, along with freedom of religion and a wealth
of other freedom's is what has made our country great. I do think
we have lost alot of our religious core...our center. And when you
lose your core, you just have a hole that must be filled. And that
is filled with self centeredness and narcissism. I think that has
happened in our country- but then, that's a topic for another thread.
Edited by: hooligans at: 9/15/01 8:34:47 am
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G E
Frequently Perched
(9/15/01 12:07:13 pm)
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Hooligans...
<<And when you lose your core, you just have a hole that must
be filled. And that is filled with self centeredness and narcissism.
I think that has happened in our country- but then, that's a topic
for another thread.>>
I think I almost agree with you on this; can you elaborate? (Also,
I get the inkling that the poltically-based threads are waning on
this board, so this is a good a thread as any to discuss things
further).
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petshark 
Board Monitor
(9/15/01 2:22:56 pm)
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"Retaliatory"
hate crimes started right away
Muslims
and Arabs Targeted in Los Angeles
Sadly predictable. I only hope the majority of Americans are not
reacting this way. And I think they are not. I remember when I was
in college, a friend of mine told me about how a man had insulted
her on the street with a term usually reserved for people of Mexican
descent. She is Palestinian. (Not that any such slur is appropriate,
regardless of whether it is applied to the usual victims.) The lesson
being that these nitwits are beyond ignorant and will hate just
about anyone, lumping together all ethnicities which are not their
own.
(Had to cut out that slur. bugs me even in this context.)
Edited by: petshark
at: 9/15/01 2:36:38 pm
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G E
Frequently Perched
(9/15/01 2:29:19 pm)
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Re: "Retaliatory"
hate crimes started right away
These are the same people who harass Blacks, Hispanics, Asians,
homosexuals, fat people, anyone who's different... Just a bunch
of awful, ignorant people with severe emotional problems who don't
know the meaning of being civilized. I hate the say it, but the
worst irony about all this is that these people who are acting out
this way in a pseudo-cloak of patrioitism, aren't actual Americans
is any sense of the word!
Edited by: G E at: 9/15/01 2:31:45 pm
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hooligans
Frequently Perched
(9/15/01 4:02:10 pm)
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Hi GE...
Ok- don’t know if I’ll be able to discuss this as eloquently as
it should be, but let me attempt to fumble through….
I feel (not sure whether I should put the emphasis on *I* or *feel*
to get the point across that this is MY belief only, not telling
anyone else what they should or should not believe) that we all
need to have a spiritual center of some sort, not necessarily Christian,
but whatever center you believe in that focuses on a higher power.
Along with that center comes the focus outside of self, to put the
needs of others before our own, to focus our lives on enhancing
the world we live in, which would also enhance our own lives. When
we have no spiritual center, no focus outside ourselves, then WE
become our own centers. We spend all our time looking inward, and
not outward. There is a hole inside of us that is just never filled.
So we are constantly trying to fill it with things and temporary
distractions. We focus on our own wants, needs, desires and place
ourselves and our own needs above everyone and everything else.
We become self-absorbed and narcissistic and live from day to day,
with no thoughts as to how what we do affects others, our future,
or mankind. We exist solely to collect as many toys, indulge in
as many pleasures as possible, and then we die.
It sounds like pure Capitalism, and this is what I think a lot of
people think Capitalism is. But what I described is not Capitalism,
it’s Narcissism. It’s a lack of a spiritual center.
Just to add a final thought...Capitalism hand in hand with freedom
of religion is what built this country and made it great. We, as
a country, are losing the spiritual side of the equation, and without
it- Narcissism and Capitialism appear to be interchangeable terms.
Hope I didn't make a mess of this!
Edited by: hooligans at: 9/15/01 4:06:56 pm
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Kira Scurro
Perch Pro
(9/15/01 5:09:57 pm)
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Re: The "terrorist
problem"
bump
~BELIEVE~
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G E
Frequently Perched
(9/15/01 5:38:37 pm)
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Re: Hi GE...
I'm glad you expanded on that, Hooligans. I tend to agree with you
regarding a general tendency for too much looking in and not enough
looking out. Prioritization is in order. As we have all said over
and over, America - b/c of what's happened - will never be the same
again and I suspect (or at least hope) we will have changed for
the better.
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petshark
Board Monitor
(9/17/01 3:58:00 pm)
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Holy cr@p
Note the date but... a tip on how NOT to deal with terrorism.
Bush's Faustian Deal With the Taliban
By Robert Scheer
Published May 22, 2001 in the Los Angeles Times
Enslave your girls and women, harbor anti-U.S. terrorists, destroy
every vestige of civilization in your homeland, and the Bush administration
will embrace you. All that matters is that you line up as an ally
in the drug war, the only international cause that this nation still
takes seriously. That's the message sent with the recent gift of
$43 million to the Taliban rulers of Afghanistan, the most virulent
anti-American violators of human rights in the world today. The
gift, announced last Thursday by Secretary of State Colin Powell,
in addition to other recent aid, makes the U.S. the main sponsor
of the Taliban and rewards that "rogue regime" for declaring
that opium growing is against the will of God. So, too, by the Taliban's
estimation, are most human activities, but it's the ban on drugs
that catches this administration's attention. Never mind that Osama
bin Laden still operates the leading anti-American terror operation
from his base in Afghanistan, from which, among other crimes, he
launched two bloody attacks on American embassies in Africa in 1998.
Sadly, the Bush administration is cozying up to the Taliban regime
at a time when the United Nations, at U.S. insistence, imposes sanctions
on Afghanistan because the Kabul government will not turn over Bin
Laden. The war on drugs has become our own fanatics' obsession and
easily trumps all other concerns. How else could we come to reward
the Taliban, who has subjected the female half of the Afghan population
to a continual reign of terror in a country once considered enlightened
in its treatment of women? At no point in modern history have women
and girls been more systematically abused than in Afghanistan where,
in the name of madness masquerading as Islam, the government in
Kabul obliterates their fundamental human rights. Women may not
appear in public without being covered from head to toe with the
oppressive shroud called the burkha , and they may not leave the
house without being accompanied by a male family member. They've
not been permitted to attend school or be treated by male doctors,
yet women have been banned from practicing medicine or any profession
for that matter. The lot of males is better if they blindly accept
the laws of an extreme religious theocracy that prescribes strict
rules governing all behavior, from a ban on shaving to what crops
may be grown. It is this last power that has captured the enthusiasm
of the Bush White House. The Taliban fanatics, economically and
diplomatically isolated, are at the breaking point, and so, in return
for a pittance of legitimacy and cash from the Bush administration,
they have been willing to appear to reverse themselves on the growing
of opium. That a totalitarian country can effectively crack down
on its farmers is not surprising. But it is grotesque for a U.S.
official, James P. Callahan, director of the State Department's
Asian anti-drug program, to describe the Taliban's special methods
in the language of representative democracy: "The Taliban used
a system of consensus-building," Callahan said after a visit
with the Taliban, adding that the Taliban justified the ban on drugs
"in very religious terms." Of course, Callahan also reported,
those who didn't obey the theocratic edict would be sent to prison.
In a country where those who break minor rules are simply beaten
on the spot by religious police and others are stoned to death,
it's understandable that the government's "religious"
argument might be compelling. Even if it means, as Callahan concedes,
that most of the farmers who grew the poppies will now confront
starvation. That's because the Afghan economy has been ruined by
the religious extremism of the Taliban, making the attraction of
opium as a previously tolerated quick cash crop overwhelming. For
that reason, the opium ban will not last unless the U.S. is willing
to pour far larger amounts of money into underwriting the Afghan
economy. As the Drug Enforcement Administration's Steven Casteel
admitted, "The bad side of the ban is that it's bringing their
country--or certain regions of their country--to economic ruin."
Nor did he hold out much hope for Afghan farmers growing other crops
such as wheat, which require a vast infrastructure to supply water
and fertilizer that no longer exists in that devastated country.
There's little doubt that the Taliban will turn once again to the
easily taxed cash crop of opium in order to stay in power. The Taliban
may suddenly be the dream regime of our own war drug war zealots,
but in the end this alliance will prove a costly failure. Our long
sad history of signing up dictators in the war on drugs demonstrates
the futility of building a foreign policy on a domestic obsession.
- - -
Robert Scheer Is a Syndicated Columnist.
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Kira Scurro
Perch Pro
(9/17/01 6:14:04 pm)
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oh no!
it can't be! does this essentially mean we may have even funded
the 11 sept attack ourselves?
~BELIEVE~
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manny
Frequently Perched
(9/17/01 6:53:24 pm)
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Re: oh no!
I'm so not surprised by this news - US Govt hypocrisy at its best!
manny
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AZLady
Frequently Perched
(9/17/01 7:02:35 pm)
63.11.161.229
Reply
| Edit
| Del
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The "terrorist
problem"
An unholy alliance, to be sure. Guess what, the US isn't the only
government that does this kind of thing. How many more deals do
you think we will have to cut in the coming months that will come
back and bite us you know where in the future?
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GingerBeth 
Frequently Perched
(9/17/01 7:59:29 pm)
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Hope Eternal for the Big Picture
Thank you friends for this thread in its entirety. Somehow I had
missed it until now. I was moved, particularly by the first remarks,
to dig up a continual source of inspiration. I hope you don't mind
me posting it here......
Nobel Prize Acceptance Speech
December 10, 1964
Oslo, Norway
I accept the Nobel Prize for Peace at a moment when twenty-two million
Negroes of the United States of America are engaged in a creative
battle to end the long night of racial injustice. I accept this
award in behalf of a civil rights movement which is moving with
determination and a majestic scorn for risk and danger to establish
a reign of freedom and a rule of justice.
I am mindful that only yesterday in Birmingham, Alabama, our children,
crying out for brotherhood, were answered with fire hoses, snarling
dogs and even death. I am mindful that only yesterday in Philadelphia,
Mississippi, young people seeing to secure the right to vote were
brutalized and murdered. And only yesterday more than 40 houses
of worship in the State of Mississippi alone were bombed or burned
because they offered a sunctuary to those who would not accept segregation.
I am mindful that debilitating and grinding poverty afflicts my
people and chains them to the lowest rung of the economic ladder.
Therefore, I must ask why this prize is awarded to a movement which
is beleaguered and committed to unrelenting struggle; to a movement
which has not won the very peace and brotherhood which is the essence
of the Nobel Prize.
After contemplation, I conclude that this award which I receive
on behalf of that movement is profound recognition that nonviolence
is the answer to the crucial political and moral question of our
time -- the need for man to overcome oppression and violence without
resorting to violence and oppression.
Civilization and violence are antithetical concepts. Negroes of
the United States, following the people of India, have demonstrated
that nonviolence is not sterile passivity, but a powerful moral
force which makes for social transformation. Sooner or later all
the people of the world will have to discover a way to live together
in peace, and thereby transform this pending cosmic elegy into a
creative psalm of brotherhood.
If this is to be achieved, man must evolve for all human conflict
a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The
foundation of such a method is love. The tortuous road which has
led from Montgomery, Alabama, to Oslo bears witness to this truth.
This is a road over which millions of Negroes are travelling to
find a new sense of dignity.
This same road has opened for all Americans a new ear of progress
and hope. It has led to a new Civil Rights bill, and it will, I
am convinced, be widened and lengthened into a superhighway of justice
as Negro and white men in increasing numbers create alliances to
overcome their common problems.
I accept this award today with an abiding faith in America and an
audacious faith in the future of mankind. I refuse to accept despair
as the final response to the ambiguities of history. I refuse to
accept the idea that the "isness" of man's present nature
makes him morally incapable of reaching up for the eternal "oughtness"
that forever confronts him.
I refuse to accept the idea that man is mere flotsom and jetsom
in the river of life unable to influence the unfolding events which
surround him. I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically
bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright
daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality.
I refuse to accept the cynical notion that nation after nation must
spiral down a militaristic stairway into the hell of thermonuclear
destruction. I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love
will have the final word in reality. This is why right temporarily
defeated is stronger than evil triumphant.
I believe that even amid today's motor bursts and whining bullets,
there is still hope for a brighter tomorrow. I believe that wounded
justice, lying prostrate on the blood-flowing streets of our nations,
can be lifted from this dust of shame to reign supreme among the
children of men.
I have the audacity to believe that peoples everywhere can have
three meals a day for their bodies, education and culture for their
minds, and dignity, equality and freedom for their spirits. I believe
that what self-centered men have torn down, men other-centered can
build up. I still believe that one day mankind will bow before the
altars of God and be crowned triumphant over war and bloodshed,
and nonviolent redemptive goodwill will proclaim the rule of the
land.
"And the lion and the lamb shall lie down together and every
man shall sit under his own vine and fig tree and none shall be
afraid."
I still believe that we shall overcome.
This faith can give us courage to face the uncertainties of the
future. It will give our tired feet new strength as we continue
our forward stride toward the city of freedom. When our days become
dreary with low-hovering clouds and our nights become darker than
a thousand midnights, we will know that we are living in the creative
turmoil of a genuine civilization struggling to be born.
Today I come to Oslo as a trustee, inspired and with renewed dedication
to humanity. I accept this prize on behalf of all men who love peace
and brotherhood. I say I come as a trustee, for in the depths of
my heart I am aware that this prize is much more than an honor to
me personally.
Every time I take a flight I am always mindful of the man people
who make a successful journey possible -- the known pilots and the
unknown ground crew.
So you honor the dedicated pilots of our struggle who have sat at
the controls as the freedom movement soared into orbit. You honor,
once again, Chief (Albert) Luthuli of South Africa, whose struggles
with and for his people, are still met with the most brutal expression
of man's inhumanity to man.
You honor the ground crew without whose labor and sacrifices the
jet flights to freedom could never have left the earth.
Most of these people will never make the headlines and their names
will not appear in Who's Who. Yet when years have rolled past and
when the blazing light of truth is focused on this marvelous age
in which we live -- men and women will know and children will be
taught that we have a finer land, a better people, a more noble
civilization -- because these humble children of God were willing
to suffer for righteousness' sake.
I think Alfred Nobel would know what I mean when I say that I accept
this award in the spirit of a curator of some precious heirloom
which he holds in trust for its true owners -- all those to whom
beauty is truth and truth beauty -- and in whose eyes the beauty
of genuine brotherhood and peace is more precious than diamonds
or silver or gold.
MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR.
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shaballs 
Perch Pro
(9/17/01 8:02:24 pm)
|
Re: The "terrorist
problem"
I have received so many emails requesting my signature to send to
Clinton/Bush as a petition against the oppression and injustices
enslaving the women in Afghanistan under the T. regime. Each time
I signed the *&!!* thing, fully knowing that until the perpetrators
of these atrosities brought violence to the dominant powers within
the U.S., nothing would become of these petitions.
The U.S. has a long history of helping regimes and terrorist dictators
in their assaults on their own people (ie. Panama, Kuwait) only
to turn on these leaders when they would no long play second fiddle
to the leading county of the NWO.
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petshark
Board Monitor
(9/18/01 8:09:44 am)
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Argh yes,
shaballs
Seems like, these days, the US never has a war to fight except of
our own making. Look at Hussein. Couldn't be more ours if we had
hatched him in a lab!
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AMERICAN
RED CROSS: 1 800 HELP NOW