| Author
|
Comment
|
shabby doll
Frequently Perched
(9/12/01 9:12:56 pm)
|
The "terrorist
problem"
Couldn't possibly agree more, IzzyLizzy. So many Americans are completely
unaware of just what the motivation for an attack like this could
be. I have heard so many people express outrage at the pictures
of the Palestinians in the refugee camps celebrating. They have
no concept of why these people would be happy about what's occurred
and see their reactions as barbaric.
Quote:
"The people here are gloating over the American grief,"
said Emad Salameh, a 29-year-old taxi driver in Gaza. "Apache
helicopters, tanks and all kinds of destructive weapons have been
killing Palestinian infants and women...Palestinians have been
crying and suffering, and now it is time for Americans to cry
and suffer."
That was from my local paper today. To my
frustration and despair, the news continues to be Amero-centric.
Don't misinterpret what I mean here. I'm only asking for more explanation
than is being supplied. For the love of pete, by all means tell
us everything about what's happening with the rescue efforts, etc.
But fill in the blanks on the story too.
|
Chili 
Perch Pro
(9/12/01 9:25:20 pm)
|
Shabby Doll...
a serious question:
Quote:
Apache helicopters, tanks and all kinds of destructive weapons
have been killing Palestinian infants and women...
What is this person referring to? To Israeli-owned
Apache helicopters, and tanks sold to the Israelis by the US? He
can't mean that he thinks we kill Palestinians directly; except
for the Gulf War, we've had no direct involvement in the Middle
East since Lebanon in the early 1980's - 20 years ago. Or am I forgetting
something humungous? (well, this is likely)... And, by "Palestinians"
does he mean anyone not of the nation of Israel? Because Sadam's
Iraqi's aren't "Palestinian". I'm confused - am I being
dense? Or is he under a terrible misconception? Or... was something
lost in the translation? Do they seriously think that Israel = the
US?
Oh boy... this is a whole different can of worms. Let me close it
back up.
|
babzee 
Perch Pro
(9/12/01 9:26:34 pm)
|
Re: The "terrorist
problem"
From the NY Times
Quote:
September 13, 2001
THE AFGHANS
Taliban Plead for Mercy to the Miserable in a Land of Nothing
By BARRY BEARAK
ABUL, Afghanistan, Sept. 12 — If there are Americans clamoring
to bomb Afghanistan back to the Stone Age, they ought to know
that this nation does not have so far to go. This is a post-apocalyptic
place of felled cities, parched land and downtrodden people.
The fragility of this country was part of the message the Taliban
government conveyed in a plea for restraint issued late tonight.
It said in part, "We appeal to the United States not to put
Afghanistan into more misery because our people have suffered
so much."
Whatever Afghanistan's current cataclysm, its next one seems to
require little time to overtake it. Wars fought by sundry protagonists
have gone on now for 22 consecutive years, a remorseless drought
for 4. Since 1996, most of the nation has been ruled by Taliban
mullahs whose vision of the world's purest Islamic state has at
least as much to do with controlling social behavior as vouchsafing
social welfare.
The accused terrorist Osama bin Laden has found a home here, angering
much of the world. In 1998, America fired a volley of more than
70 cruise missiles at guerrilla training camps reportedly operated
by the Saudi multimillionaire. Now, there seems to be the prospect
of another barrage, with Afghan hospitality to the same man as
the cause.
As fear of an American attack mounted, the Taliban's senior spokesman
in Kandahar, Abdul Hai Mutmain, called the few foreign reporters
here to issue the statement, which in part defended Mr. bin Laden:
"These days, Osama bin Laden's name has become very popular
and to an extent it has become a symbol. These days, even to the
common people, Osama bin Laden's name is associated with all controversial
acts. Osama bin Laden does not have such capabilities. We still
hope sanity prevails in the United States. We are confident that
if a fair investigation is carried out by American authorities,
the Taliban will not be found guilty of involvement in such cowardly
acts."
The statement also said, "Killing our leaders will not help
our people any. There is no factory in Afghanistan that is worth
the price of a single missile fired at us. It will simply increase
the mistrust between the people in the region and the United States."
Whatever else there is to say about this entreaty, one part that
is indisputably true is that this land-locked, ruggedly beautiful
nation is in absolute misery.
Here in Kabul, the capital, roaming clusters of widows beg in
the streets, their palms seemingly frozen in a supplicant pose.
Withered men pull overloaded carts, their labor less costly than
the price of a donkey.
Children play in vast ruins, their limbs sometimes wrenched away
by remnant land mines. The national life expectancy, according
to the central statistics office, has fallen to 42 for males and
40 for females.
The prolonged drought has sent nearly a million Afghans — about
5 percent of the population — on a desperate flight from hunger.
Some have gone to other Afghan cities, others across the border.
More than one million are "at risk of starvation," according
to the United Nations.
Famine is the catastrophe Afghans are used to hearing about. Few
yet know of the threat of an American reprisal. The Taliban long
ago banned television, and the lack of electricity keeps most
people from listening to radio.
The nation's 100 or so foreign aid workers suffer no such telecommunications
handicaps, however, and today many of them began to flee their
adopted home, fearing either the havoc of American bombs or the
wrath of subsequent Afghan outrage.
Around noon, a special United Nations flight evacuated the first
of the expatriates. The remaining foreigners are expected to leave
on Thursday, as will three, and perhaps all four, of the American
parents here to observe the trial of their children, among eight
foreign aid workers accused by the Taliban of preaching Christianity.
As foreigners left, the Taliban took unusual precautions: they
began searching every vehicle entering government compounds. Visitors
were carefully frisked.
But however much the Taliban hierarchy was beginning to fret,
streets and bazaars were a picture of normality. Word has spread
slowly about the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington.
And even when everyday Afghans heard the news, there were no accompanying
video images to sear the horror into their memories. Personal
conversations only carried the dull stimuli of abstract words:
hijacked planes and collapsed buildings.
Khair Khana, a man selling fertilizer in a market, knew just a
bit about the attack. He thought a plane had crashed into the
White House. And he considered the perpetrators, whoever they
are, to be "enemies of God," though he also felt "Americans
should look into their hearts and minds about why someone would
kill themselves and others" in such a way.
He had not thought much about an American retaliation against
Afghanistan. When he did consider it, standing in a ramshackle
collection of stalls, he shrugged and said: "Americans are
powerful and can do anything they like without us stopping them."
Nearby, a tailor, Abdul Malik, saw God's justice in America's
pain because, as he understands it, the United States has armed
the Afghan resistance to fight against the Taliban. "So they
at least now know how it feels in their own country," he
said.
As for Mr. bin Laden, the tailor considered judgment of him to
be God's affair. "If Osama is Islam's enemy, he should be
gotten rid of," he said. "But if he is a good Muslim
and wants Islam to prosper — and if America wants him dead — then
we hope he destroys America."
The common people of Afghanistan are often circumspect with their
opinions. As one man said today: "Nobody here talks wholeheartedly
any more; it can be dangerous."
The Taliban are credited with improving safety. They disarmed
the population, they put an end to banditry. But the security
has come at a steep price.
Women have been forced into head-to-toe gowns known as burqasand
evicted from schools and the workplace. Men are obligated to wear
long beards or face jail. Banned are musical instruments, chessboards,
playing cards, nail polish and neckties. Cheers at soccer matches
are restricted to "Allah-u-akbar,"or God is great. Freedom
of speech has bowed to religious totalitarianism.
Various Taliban police forces patrol the streets. Today, in a
derelict building that is used as a precinct office, one 25-year-old
constable sat on the floor beneath a single dangling light bulb.
His name was Muhammad Anwar. He had heard something about the
attack in America but he had no idea how many were killed or what
cities were involved. Indeed, it seemed unlikely that he had ever
heard of New York.
"Attacks like these are not a good thing because Muslims
live all over the world and Muslims may have been killed,"
Mr. Anwar said hesitantly. By his reckoning, Americans were enemies
of Afghanistan, as were Jews and Christians. He thought about
this a bit more and retracted it partially. "There must have
been all kinds of people in the building, not just bad Jews but
good Jews, not just bad Christians but good ones."
He remembered something he had learned in his madrassa, or religious
school. "It is un-Islamic to
kill innocent people," he said.
And here is a link to a site belonging to a photo journalist --
it includes heart-wrenching scenes of Afghanistan and seemingly
up-to-date news.www.ciriello.com/46massudblast.html
Strength and Honor
Edited by: babzee
at: 9/12/01 9:38:39 pm
|
Chili 
Perch Pro
(9/12/01 9:41:36 pm)
|
Wow... Babzee,
thank you
...the saddest element of this article: why bin Laden, protected
and defended by the Taliban, did not spend his 200 billion dollars
rebuilding the country instead of spending it to kill thousands
of people who are innocent of any crimes against him or the Afghani
people, thereby bringing down the wrath of the world's one superpower
on their heads yet again. Boggles the mind.
I wonder if they would accept a deal: we'll help rebuild your country
if you turn him over. And we'll freeze his assets and use them to
do it. Bloodless.
|
babzee 
Perch Pro
(9/12/01 9:49:25 pm)
|
Re: Wow...
Babzee, thank you
Excellent questions, Chili.
According to a site I found about him, he's established businesses
in a couple of different countries to finance his terrorism. It
does boggle the mind to try to understand why he couldn't use the
money to benefit the desperately needy country that is harboring
him.
Here is a link to a PBS site about bin Laden, dating from the US
Embassy bombings in East Africa in 1998. There are many excellent
articles here.
www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/
Strength and Honor
Edited by: babzee
at: 9/12/01 9:59:14 pm
|
babzee 
Perch Pro
(9/12/01 10:45:50 pm)
|
Probably
too much information
But this is an excellent article, entitled "Hard Target: Why
We Can't Defeat Terrorist With Bombs and Bombast" by Raymond
Close.
www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/bombings/close.html
Here's a sample:
Quote:
Most of us accept the premise that terrorism is a phenomenon that
can be defeated only by better ideas, by persuasion and, most
importantly, by amelioration of the conditions that inspire it.
Terrorism's best asset, in the final analysis, is the fire in
the bellies of its young men, and that fire cannot be extinguished
by Tomahawk missiles. If intelligent Americans can accept that
premise as a reasonable basis for dealing with this nemesis, why
is it so difficult for our leaders to speak and act accordingly?
Quote:
The worst nightmare of our strategic military and security planners
is that a small and weak enemy could hold us hostage by possessing
a weapon of monstrous power, yet so insignificant in size and
appearance that we cannot see it, cannot locate it, and therefore
cannot attack and destroy it.
Strength and Honor
Edited by: babzee
at: 9/13/01 12:02:50 pm
|
Jackie12
Perch Pro
(9/13/01 7:11:19 am)
|
The Terrorist
Problem
Excellent thread and discussion girls! What I can't get my head
round is that Bin Laden condemns American capitalism yet he is a
multi-millionaire with various business interests aimed at mutiplying
his fortune. He seems to live in the midst of deprivation, misery
and the deepest poverty yet has done nothing to alleviate this suffering
- and I wonder if the Taliban would be so willing to offer him sanctuary
if he was a penniless nobody - I think not. I remember going to
see Paco Pena, the classical Spanish guitarist quite a long time
ago and he told us that a lot of the traditional music he played
had its roots in history - a legacy from the Moors who invaded Spain
in the 12th century - "wielding the flaming sword of Islam".
There were Holy Crusades from Britain and other parts of Europe
to the middle east and the Holy Land in the 11th and 12th centuries
aimed at removing the "infidel". Doesn't seem a lot has
changed in the intervening period, does it?
|
babzee 
Perch Pro
(9/13/01 1:40:10 pm)
|
Re: The "terrorist problem"
Because knowledge is power -- I'm bumping this.
Strength and Honor
|
lurker 0317
Perch Pro
(9/13/01 2:02:25 pm)
|
Re: The "terrorist
problem"
*bump*

Believe
those who seek the truth. Doubt those who find it.
Andre Gide
|
Judy SF
Perch Pro
(9/13/01 2:22:14 pm)
Community Supporter
|
yes
Quote:
According to a site I found about him, he's established businesses
in a couple of different countries to finance his terrorism. It
does boggle the mind to try to understand why he couldn't use
the money to benefit the desperately needy country that is harboring
him.
I've been thinking the same thing for years. He's been financing
a war, and he expects not to reap what he sows, and the governments
that harbor him and protect him and support him expect not to either?
And they call US naive?
I DO understand the reasons behind this kind of terrorism and war,
even though I am sometimes assumed to be ignorant of such things
simply because I'm an American.
Of course it is POSSIBLE as petshark points out the obvious, to
end world hunger, though I am not sure that would end religious
fanaticism... and I am reminded of something Jesus reportedly said
to the effect that "the poor will always be with you."
Well, so will the rich then, right? And so will the murderous, and
so will religious fanatics. We have them in this country as well,
and they are usually quite well-fed. They usually confine themselves
to shooting at abortion doctors and bombing clinics and killing
a few gays whenever they can and such - I guess maybe our domestic
religious fanatics are afraid to travel outside the country to kill
people.
I am not a pacifist, and I doubt that any of you really are either.
I've never supported attacking anyone first, but I do support defending
ourselves and our allies from attack, no matter what the "reasons"
are in the minds of those doing the killing.
There's no excuse for their actions, period, no matter how "disenfranchised"
they are, or whatever else causes them to become religious fanatics
on suicide missions.
Yes, yes, yes, of course we should all do whatever we can to share
the wealth around the world... but that doesn't mean not defending
ourselves from attack. The two things are not mutually exclusive
by any means.
Judy
|
Jackie12
Perch Pro
(9/13/01 3:46:05 pm)
|
The Terrorist
Problem
Judy ITA with everything you have said. I don't want war in any
shape or form but maybe if there hadn't been so much appeasement
in the years leading up to World War 2 it wouldn't have been as
bad for nearly as long. There will always been extremists and fanatics,
some more than others but this has gone well beyond the pale. I
was just watching the rescue operation on CNN and SKY news - those
guys deserve medals, I admire them so much.
|
buckwheat2
Perch Pro
(9/13/01 4:00:56 pm)
|
Re: The Terrorist
Problem
as always, clearthinking Chili......
Quote:
why bin Laden, protected and defended by the Taliban, did not
spend his 200 billion dollars rebuilding the country instead of
spending it to kill thousands of people who are innocent of any
crimes against him or the Afghani people, thereby bringing down
the wrath of the world's one superpower on their heads yet again.
I wish I had said that.
B
"I think he has a sensuous enough
soul that the darkness calls to him,"-Moonrose, 9/1/01
|
petshark 
Board Monitor
(9/13/01 4:48:36 pm)
|
The word
"appeasement" always raises hackles
It always brings to mind the pre WWII days, but in that case we
were appeasing the wrong folks. Handing your money over to a mugger
doesn't help solve crime. But making sure that the mugger-to-be
gets food and schooling might. I say "appease" the terrorist's
angry supporters only because I am assuming they have some reason
to be angry. We can't take back actions that have contributed to
their situation but we can begin to apologize. And I emphasize that
I do not mean we should forgive the terrorists themselves. They
are the madmen and they need to be treated as such. As for "why
didn't bin Laden help solve hunger and suffering in his new home
instead of waging war", well, I am guessing he is one of the
worst madmen, along the lines of Hitler and Stalin: he just doesn't
track like the rest of us. So no, he doesn't make any sense, a thorough
nut.
Edited by: petshark
at: 9/13/01 4:55:52 pm
|
shaballs 
Perch Pro
(9/13/01 5:25:01 pm)
|
Re: The word
"appeasement" always raises hackles
*Bump*
|
petshark 
Board Monitor
(9/13/01 11:47:22 pm)
|
ibid
*b*
|
petshark 
Board Monitor
(9/14/01 9:22:32 am)
|
Speaking
of fanatics
I found this so disturbing that I didn't want to start a new thread
with it. But something folks should nkow about:
God Gave U.S. 'What We Deserve,' Falwell
Says
By John F. Harris Washington Post Staff Writer
WASHINGTON (Post) -- Television evangelists Jerry Falwell and Pat
Robertson, two of the most prominent voices of the religious right,
said liberal civil liberties groups, feminists, homosexuals and
abortion rights supporters bear partial responsibility for Tuesday's
terrorist attacks because heir actions have turned God's anger against
America.
"God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of
America to give us probably what we deserve," said Falwell,
appearing yesterday on the Christian Broadcasting Network's "700
Club," hosted by Robertson.
"Jerry, that's my feeling," Robertson responded. "I
think we've just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even
begun to see what they can do to the major population."
Falwell said the American Civil Liberties Union has "got to
take a lot of blame for this," again winning Robertson's agreement:
"Well, yes."
Then Falwell broadened his blast to include the federal courts and
others who he said were "throwing God out of the public square."
He added: "The abortionists have got to bear some burden for
this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million
little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the
pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and
the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative
lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way -- all of them
who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their
face and say, 'You helped this happen.' "
People for the American Way transcribed the broadcast and denounced
the comments as running directly counter to President Bush's call
for national unity. Ralph G. Neas, the liberal group's president,
called the remarks "absolutely inappropriate and irresponsible."
Robertson and others on the religious right gave critical backing
to Bush last year when he was battling for the GOP presidential
nomination. A White House official called the remarks "inappropriate"
and added, "The president does not share those views."
Falwell was unrepentant, saying in an interview that he was "making
a theological statement, not a legal statement."
"I put all the blame legally and morally on the actions of
the terrorist," he said. But he said America's "secular
and anti-Christian environment left us open to our Lord's [decision]
not to protect. When a nation deserts God and expels God from the
culture . . . the result is not good."
Robertson was not available for comment, a spokeswoman said. But
she released a statement echoing the remarks he made on his show.
An ACLU spokeswoman said the group "will not dignify the Falwell-Robertson
remarks with a comment."
|
akaNikki
Perch Pro
(9/14/01 9:32:04 am)
|
Re: Speaking
of fanatics
See KitKat's thread - she posted this and several have already started
replying.
|
easyblue
Registered User
(9/14/01 9:53:28 am)
|
RE: The "terrorist
problem"
I think we need to find ways to outsmart the terrorist. War may
give us a temporary fix and make is feel vindicated, but, it won't
make them go away.
This CIA and FBI try hard, I'm sure, to fight terrorist daily. They
need to find new ways, "think out of the box", more funding,
and more intelligence agents.
|
G E
Frequently Perched
(9/14/01 10:22:11 am)
|
My first
bump ever...
and well worth the wait!
*BUMP!!!!*
|
G E
Frequently Perched
(9/14/01 10:37:38 am)
|
Chili, I'll
open the can of worms just a tiny bit...
<<Do they seriously think that Israel = the US?>>
Yes. If we're backing them and giving support, there's no differentiation.
We're contributing to their problem.
|
|